otw_news | Upcoming events: International Outreach

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Upcoming events: International Outreach

Last week's anti-fanfic bingo voting had a fantastic turn out. If you didn't have the chance last week, please swing by to check out the questions and answers and tell us which ones are your favourites.

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There has been a great deal of discussion during and after our "Why OTW?" week, not only about OTW, but also about what it is to identify as a fan, what fandom means to different people and how individual fans and groups shape their own fannish experiences.

It's evident from what we've read that there have been some misconceptions about what our org is and what we hope to do. We apologise if we have been unclear about some of the concepts and policies, and we hope you will understand that we are still in the process of setting up policies and honing language. We don't have all the final, polished answers yet and we need time, hard work and your help to do that. In fact, our content policy will be up for discussion and feedback in a fandom-wide setting before we set our policies in stone.

This week, we have been discussing and working on plain language FAQs which address some of the concerns and rumours making the rounds. For example, the rumour that we will ban men from using the archive and other org services -- not only is that rumour completely untrue (and on the internet, how would we even know if you're a man?), we'd like to remind everyone that we have men among the staffers at OTW. We welcome all fans, regardless of gender, race and age, who wish to use the archive and wiki or need advice. (Plus, we don't eat babies, no matter how much ketchup there is and how tasty they look.)

Keep a look out for those FAQs as well as some interviews with some of the board members in the next few weeks!

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Finally, we need your help. We're kicking off our outreach campaign this March. One of our outreach goals is to make the archive and website accessible to a wide population. The archive is being built so that fanfiction in any language can be uploaded and read.

We know that there are a huge number of fandoms across the world: German fandoms, Spanish fandoms, Japanese fandoms, Korean fandoms etc... all kinds of different language fandoms. If you are currently in fandoms that are conducted in a language other than English or have been in these fandoms, we would appreciate your advice and your experience! We want to know about archiving, we want to know about legal situations in different countries, we want to know about how large the fandoms are, and what kind of fandoms there are.

Currently, we would like to start off by translating the OTW website into different languages so that people who speak various native languages can find out about us. We've also realised that organising chats in different time zones can be tricky. We're planning to open some discussion posts conducted in different languages where various native speakers of those languages can ask questions more easily.

We need volunteers who can give us a hand with international outreach. If you are interested, please read the Volunteers post following this post for more info.

ETA: changed "this spring" to "this March". My gravest apologies, Southern Hemisphere.

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I run into a lot of Russian speakers in anime/manga fandoms, and there are certainly tons of Russian-speaking sf/f fans (I have no idea how many of them write fic, do art, etc.). I don't know if anyone is going to volunteer, but it's another language to keep in mind.

Oh, absolutely. As long as we have volunteers for a language, we want to translate it! The examples in the post were just that -- examples! :)

I, too, think Russian would be a language to consider. I've encountered a group of very active Russian Hercules fans who have their own archives and mailing list, translate English stories and write their own stories in Russian, even make vids with Russian songs. Given that HtLJ is a small fandom to begin with, it seems likely that there's a larger Russian presence in other fandoms, too. (My English-to-Russian isn't good enough, alas, or I'd volunteer to translate.)

As a Dutch native speaker, I would volunteer to do a Dutch translation, but I am not sure it's needed - I'm not aware of any Dutch-language mediafannish activity at all, and the few Dutch fellow slash fans I know all write/read in English.

Hi!

Russian is definitely on our list of languages we hope we have volunteers for -- I have a wish-list of about twenty languages in a text file -- and it's definitely going to be interesting taking a look at their laws surrounding IP and copyright. :)

Hey, I actually have another native Dutch speaker who has volunteered. If we decided that yes, we would really like to have a Dutch version of the values/mission statement in the interests of being more user friendly to everyone, would you be interested in helping us?

Thanks either way!

If we decided that yes, we would really like to have a Dutch version of the values/mission statement in the interests of being more user friendly to everyone, would you be interested in helping us?

Yes, absolutely. I'll put my details in the volunteer post.

Yay, thanks! :D

The "translation" topic sparked a thought for me. This may be completely off your mission statement--probably is--but a major problem I run into in fandom is lack of English-language access to non-English original/canonical texts (especially Japanese). Many fans do translations, which are, of course, a violation of copyright. Yet for texts that are likely never to be licensed in English, there seems to be no alternative except to let them remain inaccessible, which seem counterproductive for fans and the publicity of the original creator.

I would like to see fan translations legitimized (perhaps on the understanding that they'll be pulled from distribution if a licensed version becomes available--not enforcible, I know.) This is probably not a battle for OTW, but I thought I'd pass on my thoughts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to pass it along the org as a whole but, in my own personal opinion, fan translations don't fall into the scope of the org. (Different kind of transformative, I think. *g*)

I know that there are many good arguments to be made for fan translations but they do fall into more of the realm of arguments for and against the distribution of source materials. There are many arguments to be made for films, books, shows and cds and other multi-media sources being distributed unaltered via p2p across the world, especially to countries that won't get the original source as is for a variety reasons (local tv company didn't purchase it, it's been banned etc). However, OTW's interest isn't in this area.

Here's a handy link of internet/human rights orgs that may be able to help you: http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/links/internet.html

I've never actually looked into the legal situation for fanfic in Germany. (see as that's where I live, maybe I should have done that sooner *facepalm*)

I didn't find anything really useful so far (as in nobody neatly spelled it out for me).
But! German copyright low does allow for derivative works to be copyrighted, IF they reach a certain amount of originality.

I have currently no idea how much originality they require (and it seems to be decided on a case-by-case basis). And this is probably not what we are looking for exactly - you get full copyright. If you wanted, you could sell your works. Which opens up another can of worms I don't think anybody wants to get into.
German copyright law doesn't make a lot of references to non.commercial use, from what little I understand.

I'm currently poking around, looking for a more or less reliable message board filled with people who talk lawyer-speek.)

Thanks!

Copyright law is always tricky -- you'll find that a lot of internet rights laws, copyright law and IP laws are up for debate in Europe right now and that they are generally more lax and consumer friendly than current U.S. laws. An exciting time for Europe! Again, thanks for taking the time to look around. :)

(imo, I know people are worried because it seems like there is only two choices -- either full commerical copyright or illegal -- but I think that in the coming years, it will be entirely possible to see different kinds of codicils and subtleties creeping into the law.)

the polarity between commercial and illegal is something I've noticed, too.
I wonder why that is. I mean it's not something I'm only picking from people, but from the stuff I found, too. And, I don't know. Maybe the "art" scene in Europe is staying further away from pop culture than in north America? And it just hasn't come up much?
Fanfiction is even less well known around here.

But I can easily see how the grey areas could become protected. And even get limited copyright. (As in, yes, the original thing belongs to you; no, that doesn't mean you own all the derivative work and can money off it)
I have seen references to something like 'still unknown uses' which maybe could apply here, but I haven't looked at any of the laws for that and if they're of any use to us.
I think a huge part of the problem is that we're doing something which most people who have something to do with copyright do haven't done - we're not out for money or any equivalent to that, like say, status within the scientific community by using other people's work.

... are there any other areas that compare to what we're doing? Maybe precendents there would be helpful to our situation.

And the whole situation is rather paradox. Copyright law is supposed to protect the theft of ideas - which we aren't doing. We're all recognizing that we didn't come up with those characters and universe and give credit to the creators. And to protect the material interests of what comes off it.
At least that's how understand it.
Fanfiction doesn't touch upon either of those, in my opinion.
*sigh* I'd love to talk to an actual judge, lawyer or professor to gauge their opionion. Because logical/legitimate and legal can be two vastly different things. Unfortunately, my cousin who is a lawyer deals mostly in family law (and what I like to call annoying petty stuff; wills, the odd insurance stuff. I mean, it's important when you actually deal with it. But it's not the most exciting stuff in the world from an outsiders perspective) And the professor my family is friendly with, I'm pretty sure he deals more with the constituational side of law. Neither of which is helpful.
Still, I might talk to the professor next time we're having dinner or coffee together. Dude might possibly know everything about anything.
I find I think best when I have somebody to bounce ideas and questions off on, preferably somebody who has some kind of knowledge about the subject.

And on European copyright law, last I heard it is getting more unfriendly. mostly because law makers are starting to follow the lead of the US.
I found myself outraged at a few bits and pieces I heard about, but mostly I just started to ignore it as much as possible. Which is stupid on so many levels, but pick and chose your battles. And I chose to hide under a rock and hope it all went away at some point.
I may reconsider that stand point now.

For a very long time, copyright protected copies only. Then it was extended to "derivative works," meaning basically "if someone makes a movie from your book, or writes a sequel to it, you should have some rights to money for that."

Fanfic was never considered, because tiny clots of fans exchanging comments or story fragments among themselves was no danger to the author's income--which is the indirect purpose of copyright law. (The direct purpose is "to promote progress in the arts and sciences"--securing economic safety encourages people to publish more widely.)

It's only very recently that noncommercial works can get widespread publication or display. And copyright law that was designed (in part) to deal with "giving away flyers with a picture copied from a book to promote your bookstore" (which should require the artists' permission/residual payments/whatever) is suddenly facing excerpts of the orginal being used to promote the original in an unauthorized fashion. Which sometimes the IP holder objects to, but doesn't seem to be doing a damn bit of harm to the IP holders' income, nor to artistic progress in general.

Plus, there's the nightmarish truth that the entire web is full of "copies"--that in order to visit a website, its content is copied on various servers and your own hard drive. These are authorized copies... but it's entirely unclear how or if someone can "unauthorize" them. (Removing your webpage doesn't remove it from Google. And you can't enforce "my content may not be copied to AOL-owned servers.")

Copyright law is very confused right now. Pat it on the head. Give it cookies. Make no sudden movements; confused laws can lash out unexpectedly.

*g* I think I want the last comment on a t-shirt.

That's why I asked somewhere if anybody as ever done anything like fanfic. In other areas of law. At least I think I asked

(re: promotion. they might argue that a lot of the fanfic messes with the image they branded their product with. Which will make them drag out the... uh.. quirkier stories. Ignoring all the other stuff that plays right into it. (and they should really get off their asses and give us more gay characters. I have a secret wish that one of 'my' shows, when/if they get cancelled reveal the undying love between my favorite slash couple in the final episode. I have favorite het couples, too. But that's been done.))

The problem with pulling out the "quirkier" stories as "damage to their brand"... is that they have to show that the "damaged" rep has some kind of market effect. Since fandom's really big on "I don't own these guys, this is not the official version, WB/Paramount/Disney would be appalled by this story," there's no (sensible) way they can claim the general public gets a negative view of their characters.

Also, saying "thousands of squeeing fangirls buy our stuff because they think our villain & hero should be getting it on" fails as a claim of damages.

I think the problem is the increasing awareness of people outside of fandom. Then it's not just about the fangirls anymore.
And if we argue that we're promoting their stuff, they will hit back with saying, we do not want people telling viewers that the two main characters have mad hot buttsex all the time, thank you very much.

Of course, I think personally think they're full of shit, but some "brands" are more than a little touchy about the image associated with them.
Mostly I think people should just grow up and realize that different people percieve things a different way and what the hell do we care how somebody else sees it? Sadly, most of the world does not seem to agree with me. Maybe I'm just cynical.

(deleted comment)

hmm, I hadn't thought about that. Bit of a different can of worms though.

(Side note: \o/ for parents actually checking what their child does online. Booooo! for making others responsible. Did the archive make the kid look at that stuff? No.
I am actually amazed that people can work together like that and find a workable solution. I wouldn't be particularly happy about that solution. After all one may want porn at say 9am, but definitely better than the alternative.
I have a love-hate relationship with the Jugendschutz. Some of the laws are remarkably reasonable. Other stuff and the things they ban... not so much. Come on. Starship Troopers? Gewaltverherrlichende Propaganda? Seriously?)

(lol, my sidenote usually end up longer than the actual thing).

something I have been wondering about since I just started learning the language: is there any Arabic fanfic out there?

ETA: DUDE! HARRY POTTER FIC IN ARABIC! (now I actually have to put my ass in gear and learn my words so that I can read that. Should only be, oh,... another semester?)

also: *facepalm* for not just going to ff.net first.

Edited 2008-01-26 22:21 (UTC)

I'm commenting here because I can't really volunteer to translate - English is my native language, and while I'm fairly fluent in German, native speakers will do a far better job! I am a professional translator in RL, though, so I've a lot of experience in the kinds of organisational issues that can crop up in the translation process and how to avoid some problems. You may well have considered all of these things, maybe some of you are even translators too! But I thought I'd comment with a few suggestions and ideas, just in case some of them may come in useful.

One of the issues that can crop up when more than one translator is working on the same text is that consistency is lost - particularly when there's more than one acceptable translation for a term, and translator 1 opts for translation A and translator 2 for translation B. Ideally, translators would communicate during the translation process to agree on which translation is best. Or if there are too many translators in a language for that to be practical, what we sometimes do at my work is create a small style guide - just a little list of terms and the standard translations we are going to apply across the board. If the translators don't communicate and sort out that sort of thing during the translation process, someone generally needs to go through and harmonise things afterwards. (Though having someone check over a translation is always a good thing - typos/misunderstanding/lack of inspiration happen to us all!)

One thing we always insist on at my workplace is to have a specified person to contact in case of questions. We tend to find that there's always something that's not 100% clear to a non-native speaker, regardless of how well-written the text is. And sometimes additional information is needed so the translator can be sure they're translating something correctly - I could imagine that being the case for legal terms, for instance, or the details of the non-profit status process. It might be a good idea to designate someone on the committee as the contact person for the translators - and to actively encourage the translators to get in touch with them if there's something they're not sure about or need more information on. A lot of new translators tend to be a bit reluctant to do that, in my experience, because they see it as giving up or a sign of ignorance or something, when really it's perfectly normal and in everyone's best interests.

Another issue that might be best considered by the committee is whether to insist on / actively encourage gender-neutral phrasing. In a lot of languages that's far more difficult than in English, or can get really unwieldy. You might still want to encourage people to go for a gender-neutral form where there is one available, though, for instance - a lot of novice translators lose sight of the issue entirely unless they are reminded of it.

Anyway, those are just a few points I thought I'd raise - they are probably all fairly obvious, but just in case they might be helpful. If there is anything I can do to help on the translation front, please do let me know!

So, I'm a student right now and I'm really busy, but I could probably help translate a little bit into Japanese if there's anyone else interested in helping? I couldn't make the language as flowery as the English version, but I wouldn't have any trouble getting the meaning across. I don't think I can commit securely to any large additional amount of work during the semester though, so I wouldn't be as reliable or useful as someone else might be. Another problem is that I'm not a member or any Japanese fan communities, but I just scanned some Japanese pages and wikis, and I don't think I'd have much trouble learning all the relevant jargon. Are you also interested in reserve volunteers of some kind?
~Melanie C.

Hi Melanie -- there are other Japanese translators currently available and we would love it if you could join us! If you aren't available for this stage, we are eventually going to be doing discussion posts in other languages so we always need volunteers.

Could you come and leave your details at this post:http://community.livejournal.com/otw_news/24322.html?

Thanks!

Hello,

I am a English/Portuguese Translator, and would like some information on the process, what it entais and what sort of work exactly you are looking for. I don't know if you have interest in having a Portuguese Transalation done, but I would like to know if there is interest and what kind of work it would be (how much, deadlines, and such)

Thanks
Amethist

Hi, hi! We are very interested in having Portuguese translation volunteers (*vibrates with excitment on behalf of the Translation committee*)!

Currently, we have a lot of teams working on translating the OTW Website but there will be other things to do in the future (for example, the recent membership post) and we're rolling on a project by project, team by team basis in regards to deadlines and content. If we only have one volunteer, we will give them long deadlines and won't ask them to do as much as teams where we have lots of volunteers! And there are a lot of other factors to consider.

If you would like to know more specifics and would like to have a chat about it, please put your contact details down here: http://community.livejournal.com/otw_news/24322.html

and we can arrange to chat or email in more detail.

Thanks!

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Upcoming events: International Outreach

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