otw_news | - Anti-Fanfic Bingo, part four

1. This is my respect.

2. Actually, no, you are.

3. Er, have you looked at Fanfiction.net recently? Do you think the trash there caused JK Rowling to lose a dime? Puhlease.

4. Wow. You have more issues than Anne Rice. Wait, are you Anne Rice?

5. How about you stick to writing, I'll stick to fanning and the lawyers can stick to lawyering?

hee!

1. And who says I'm not respecting them? If I didn't think their original world was awesome, I wouldn't want to play in it.
2. Huh? The fan community, like most communities, is diverse and there are many different opinions represented. Please don't tar all of us with the same brush.
3. What world do you live in? Really. Anyone with half a brain can easily distinguish between the published work of an author and the fan stuff online, and I have never heard of anyone that decides against reading or buying something because the fanfic associated with it is bad. That's rather like not buying Metallica because you once heard a lousy Metallica cover band.
4. Wow. No, I'm not. I am not forcing you to have sex with me. I am writing fiction set in your universe. Please, have a sense of perspective.
5. It may be. But is it really worth trying to stop us? We're your devoted fans, we love your stuff, or we wouldn't be doing this. And we're not making any money off it. So, please, relax.

You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!
But far more often, the good stories bring more people into the fandom than would get there otherwise. There are some things I wouldn't have ever considered reading or watching if not for fandom; Good Omens, which led me to the rest of Gaiman and Pratchett's work, is likely my best example. If one of my pre-LJ-era friends hadn't used Crowley fanart for her blog layout one spring, I wouldn't have discovered the book, and about 35-40 more books by the same authors, for quite some time (if at all). And I've bought about 20 of those books, and had another ten or so bought for me.
Yes, it's art and not fic, but tell me how the fanwork hurt the authors financially.

You're raping me!
...
......
........................
+++Divide By Cucumber Error+++Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot+++

It's trademark infringement!
Does that only count if you try to sell it without the creator's permission? 'cause if that's the case, even the fans don't tend to like that aspect. I cite the person who tried to put her Star Wars fanfic up for sale on Amazon; fandom basically went 'YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!' until she took it down. Most fans aren't so dumb as to try to make a profit off other people's stories.

+++Divide By Cucumber Error+++Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot+++

Oh, this is the best line! You made me laugh out loud with it!

. . .but was it an electric cucumber error?

Sorry *slaps self*

1. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. (No, I didn't make that up. Shall I disclaimer it for you?)

2. We're not the one saying that nobody else can play with their toys.

3. All of Lee Goldberg's crappy tie-ins haven't stopped people from watching Monk.

4. Out of respect for victims of actual sexual violence, including myself, please STFU now.

5. OMG, if Disney can't keep people from using their old cartoons indefinitely, it could be the end of the world as we know it (tm).

/snarkiness

Yes, I recognize that these aren't useful discussion-friendly helpy rebuttals. But #4 pissed me off.

(A more nicer way of phrasing #5 could be pointing out all the ways that the copyright/trademark system is broken in favor of corporations, and how that actually hurts, rather than helps, the innovation the system was supposed to encourage in the first place.)

#3 FTW.

You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!

I certainly respect the effort and talent they put into their artistic creation. But I don't always agree with people I respect, nor do I always follow their wishes. I respect my mother more than almost anyone in the world, but when she says she doesn't like the new guy I'm dating, I listen cordially and then make my own decision. She is not the boss of me. And neither are authors.

You're acting like spoiled children!

That would imply that I am whining, crying, and abusing those who refuse to give me something I want. I'm not whining, I'm not crying, and I'm not calling anyone nasty names. (Some people in fandom probably are, but that's what some people do, whether it's over fanfiction or their cell phone bill.) Also, the spoiled-children similie implies that I am asking for something I don't have a right to and don't deserve. Obviously, I don't see the creation of fanworks in that light.

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!

Bad reviews make people not want to buy a writer's work. Bad reviews are legal. And I have a very hard time imagining that someone would be surfing fanfiction.net, come across "The Day that Draco Malfoy Fell in Love with Princess Sparklesue," and decide that the Harry Potter series isn't worth reading. Come on now.

You're raping me!

If you've been raped, and this really feels that terrible to you, I suggest you seek counseling -- you may be suffering from PTSD. If you haven't been raped, and you think that what you're feeling is in any way comparable to what a rape survivor feels, I suggest you issue a public apology immediately and donate a large sum of money to RAINN -- and get a frickin' clue.

Rape is horrifying because it robs the victim of control of his or her own body, a basic human right and the foundation of our sense of security and self. It also feeds off society's ideas about sex and purity, and makes later intimacy problematic for many survivors. This is not like fanfiction at all. I do not hurt you when I write fanfiction. I do not take anything away from you. I do not traumatize you. I do not make you question your worth as a human being. I do not make you afraid to get close to people you love. Fanfiction is not like rape.

(Do people really say this? I mean, come on.)

It's trademark infringement!

Um, I could be wrong, but isn't trademark entirely different from copyright?

If you've been raped, and this really feels that terrible to you, I suggest you seek counseling -- you may be suffering from PTSD. If you haven't been raped, and you think that what you're feeling is in any way comparable to what a rape survivor feels, I suggest you issue a public apology immediately and donate a large sum of money to RAINN -- and get a frickin' clue.
I've gotta admit, the argument that pisses me off the most is that fanfic is rape. People use that word to describe too many things, and when you do, the original meaning uses value. I find that that action is far worse than anything fanfic writers could ever do.

(Do people really say this? I mean, come on.)
Yes, yes they do. And it drives me *crazy*. They obviously have no idea what they're talking about.

Um, I could be wrong, but isn't trademark entirely different from copyright?
I could also be wrong here, but I think they are different things, but trademark can be applied to fiction. Like Disney trademarked Mickey (at least, maybe more) because they don't want to lose control since Walt has been dead for a while now. Copyright has a time limit, trademark does not.

1. I create new worlds all the time in my original work, so why should I give EXTRA SPECIAL SUPER RESPECT to other people for doing the same thing? And just look at AU fic - new universe right there, lookit!

2. How is being polite, respectful and loving acting like a spoiled child? Man, you must come from one uptight family, I'll tell you that.

3. You have no idea how many new shows and books series I've gone out and bought because of fandom, and at extortionate prices, too, just because I fell in love with the fic.

4. I could vaguely see the origin of the 'you're raping my character!' objection even if I disagreed, but this is taking associative reasoning ONE STEP TOO FAR. Your story does not equal your baby, or indeed you. There's a difference, yo.

5. Prove it.

1. I like Erwin Schrödinger conributions to knowledge, but I hardly think that he was a good person.
2. Wanting to write can hardly be termed something too much for one's own self. It is a contribution for others to read it.
3. Even if it did, it would not matters, because it is not the author's revenue stream that is important. The art is important. There is no need to respect any author's revenue stream.
4. Somehow, a hard copy of a piece of fanfiction (on paper) has somehow crawled onto your bed and took advantage of you.
5. That is what disclaimers are for. It is to ensure a lack of confusion.

your #4

heh. "Hard" copy.

I also have second responses to the first four:
1. People are not allowed to do anything that disrespects any autho, and should revere them like gods?
2. So now we hoard all of our material and keep it from others? The copyright abusers are more aptly described using this term.
3. People must do everything possible to ensure that the authors earn as much money as possible?
4. I don't ever recall sneaking into people's homes at night and taking advantage of them.

(1)You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL(TM) world!
I respect the hell out of the writers for creating an original fictional world, but I have a right to redo things to my liking because I think things might have gone differently. If it weren't for their TV show, book and movies, or what have you, I wouldn't be a fan and I wouldn't be writing about my fave characters. I respect the original highly and love my fave characters so well I want to write my own fantasies about them and their adventures. That does not change the original at all.

(2) you're acting like spoiled children!
How so? Pot meet kettle. You're the one acting like a spoiled child because YOU don't like something and you expect everyone else to like what you like, as though the world revolves around your tastes alone. That attitude is entirely self centered and is the earmark of sn immature person. Adults know that everyone in the world is different and that everyone likes and dislikes different things and they have a right to do so without interference or harassment from anyone.

(3) Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy the writer's work! Show me the numbers. I want facts and figures. That statement is a fallacy based on no evidence whatsoever. Many people either already have the author's work or go and buy it so they can read/watch the original. I myself never watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer until AFTER I started reading fan fic. Now tell me how my buying all 7 seasons on DVD, at one go, backs up your assertion? I also have Angel the series all 5 seasons. I bought those after reading fan fic also. I had NEVER watched them on television and I wanted to see these characters everyone was writing fic about. It increases sales, because the fans are the ones who buy the writer's work. Why would anyone buy show relatd things if they aren't a fan already? Fan Fiction is a part of that whether it's Het, Gen, or slash. Fan fiction, no matter the type, increases the interest in the original work.

(4) You're raping me!
Oh, did I somehow find you in my dreams and jump your bones? How on earth am I raping YOU? You don't have to read fan fiction of any kind. The sacred back button is there for a reason. Use it. It's very strange that if I am actually raping you that I am not in jail. But you are, you're in a jail of your own prejudices, Be careful what you say, that's libel and I CAN get you for THAT because you are damaging my reputation with a lie, and delibertely so.

(5) It's trademark infringement!
Trademarks apply to original characters used in toys and such, not written work. Sigh. Google it and get your terms straight. If your google finger is broken, then you should still be able to use your nose because it's long enough to poke in everyone else's business. You're not the fanfic police! You're not copyright or trademark police, Thank God, because you can't even get the terms stright. Get real and get a life already. No Fanfic writer I know makes money selling lunchboxes or action figures.

Edited 2008-01-07 21:10 (UTC)

Trademarks apply to original characters used in toys and such, not written work.

This is not strictly correct. A great variety of things can be trademarked, including images (the Superman S-logo, the NBC peacock), acronyms (AD&D, CBS), coined words (Kleenex, Xerox), and names (V.C. Andrews, Robert Ludlum, Martha Stewart). In this last context, it's entirely possible to trademark the names of literary characters (Tarzan, Zorro) and argue that the characters are thereby protected on the basis of the trademark status.

That said, there are all kinds of limits and practical considerations associated with trademark theory that make protecting the status of trademarked literary characters relatively difficult; this is probably one reason that professional authors generally rely on copyright-based theories rather than trademark theories in criticizing fanfic. [See also C. E. Petit's legal analysis of fanfic issues here; it's dense reading, but worth the effort.] On the flip side, certain aspects of trademark theory may indeed favor fanfic writers' ability to reference other authors' characters.

"It's trademark infringement" oversimplifies. But trademark theory is certainly relevant to discussions of the legal status of fanfic.

That may be so, but, in the long run the trademark isn't associated so much with the story/fan fic aspect as the copyrights. And it's the copyrights that make the news, and seem to draw the most ire when it comes to fanfic. And yeah images and anything that is specific to a character or titled work can be trademarked, this I know, eBay constantly has auctions taken down because of VERO, and trademark issues. People seem to think they can take trademarked images and characters and print them on something and sell them for a profit.

If any fanfic author was actually making a profit then the Big Guns would have already had them in court over it. As long as fanfic doesn't affect their bottom line most of them are content to ignore it because they know it puts money in their pockets in the long run. They're not stupid enough to try what the Music Association is doing and alienate their fan base as long as it's not encroaching on their bank balance.

This person is just spouting what they've heard rather than what they've read or researched themselves. He/she is a good little drone. GIGO.

Edited 2008-01-07 22:34 (UTC)

doingsoso: Trademarks apply to original characters used in toys and such, not written work.

djonn: This is not strictly correct...it's entirely possible to trademark the names of literary characters (Tarzan, Zorro) and argue that the characters are thereby protected on the basis of the trademark status.

doingsoso: images and anything that is specific to a character or titled work can be trademarked, this I know,

The Tarzan and Zorro trademarks derive at least as much from the literary properties as from any filmed or graphic adaptations, which I think sufficiently covers my original point.

This person is just spouting what they've heard rather than what they've read or researched themselves. He/she is a good little drone. GIGO.

If this refers to C. E. Petit, the statement is incorrect. Mr. Petit is an intellectual property attorney with extensive experience in copyright, trademark, genre fiction, and appellate law (among other things, he represented Harlan Ellison in Ellison's suit against AOL) -- and he does his own research.

If this refers to me, the statement is also incorrect. I have in fact read the entirety of the essay to which I linked upstream, I have many years' experience observing and participating in both the professional and fannish writing communities, and I've engaged in discussions of fanfic theory and practice on both sides of that fence. Very briefly: I'm presently an active member of SFWA; OTOH, I also published a story under my own name in Holmesian Federation (it ran in #7; the St. Germain story that provoked the Yarbro kerfuffle ran in #8, and I still have my copy of that issue).

My intent in contributing to the present discussions hasn't been to promote a particular view of fanfic; it's been to introduce hard information and to correct misinformation; to a lesser extent, I'm merely trying to observe that the legal status of fanfic is complicated. It hadn't occurred to me that making that last point might itself provoke controversy....

I'm not going to continue this discussion, debate, whatever you're trying to do here. Troll maybe?. This is not the point of these posts. Let's just say we agree to disagree and drop it. I see it differently than you do, and I've done my share of research and reading on copyright/trademark issues. And if you have any arguments to make direct them to the purpose of the original topic of the post and not trying to lecture me, or debate or whatever the hell it is you're doing. I'm tired of people like you who think it's okay to try and browbeat everyone else into your point of view.

Now if you're so knowledgeable, make your your arguments directed at the questions on the bingo card instead of trying to engage me in some pointless debate, because I don't agree with you. I do believe I'm the only one on here that you're arguing with. Maybe you should be an attorney for fic writers since you think you're such an expert. Anyway I stated my opinions to the original content of the post. Not to an individual. Most certainly not to you. And it is not your business to correct me in any shape, form, or fashion, unless you can show me a law degree that makes you an expert on the matter. Now you direct YOUR answers and arguments to the remarks on the bingo card not me.

I'm not interested in any more of your opinions, unless it's reading your comments in answer to the statements on the Bingo Card. You can go slap happy lectureville on them if you want to, it's wasted on me.

Very seldom do trademark issues have anything to do with fan fic, period. I've never read about or heard of any case of trademark infringement against a fan fic writer, in all the case examples that I have read, and all the reports I've dug up, there may be one somewhere, but I haven't seen it, or read it. If doesn't have a precedent setting case then your little theories are so much garbage. I've heard plenty and read plenty about copyright infringement, so there's no sense in you continuing to argue me into agreeing with you, because I won't.

I've never read about or heard of any case of trademark infringement against a fan fic writer

Had you read the piece he linked, you would know why that is.

I said I'm finished with this discussion. It's over, done kaput. What part of stop, quit, cease, and desist, don't you understand? This debate is over. I'm not interested in anything else he said, is saying or will say. I do not need correction from you either, even if you have a delusion that you're the thread police and have the right to do so.

This is not going to turn into some long drawn out snark fest. I am not interested in anything else said about this subject. I have done my own reading and I continue to read on the subject. I didn't ask for and don't appreciate the condescending attitude, or the attitude that you have the right to act en loco parentis and scold me.

As I said before, whatever the reason, there are no case precedents on trademark infringement, so any debate over it is as useless as udders on a bull and counterproductive, and purely arguing for argument's sake. And I am not going to argue with you. That is the way I interpret what I've found in my reading. You interpret it differently, so be it, find someone else to argue with. Start a new thread and argue about it to your heart's content. I have no interest in a continuing debate. It won't change my mind, and frankly I find it highly offensive that you think you have the right to tell me how to interpret what I've found in my reseaerch, when even a judge hasn't handed down a decision on fan fic and trademark infringement yet.

Unless and until there is such a trademark infringement case brought before a judge against any fan fiction writer for a decision, the matter is open to a lot of different interpretations. Yours is not the only one, nor can you even claim it is the correct one, it's only an opinion. I don't claim my interpretation is the correct one either, it's just my opinion. And I refuse to be taken to task by someone, who is not a legal expert or a judge, on my opinions.

Now I'm done. Have a nice evening.

Edited 2008-01-08 23:24 (UTC)

So sorry to have disturbed you as much as I obviously have.

I think the only comment I need to make here is that any and all of my posts herein (including this one) have been written with the general topic/thread audience in mind, and are not intended as any sort of private or personal dialogue. Nor do I consider the present message-stream an appropriate venue for raising or pursuing personality-based arguments.

That was interesting. Thanks for the link.

Thank you for that link -- it's a great read and very thought-provoking. The conclusion the author reaches is particularly intriguing:

In short, the only way we're going to get this resolved is if somebody produces some really good fan fiction — probably "better" than the original — and has the resources to try to defend it.

1) Respect is freely given until you start acting like a spoiled child.
2) Yes, you are.
3) I worked my ass off in a fast food restaurant for half a decade; tell me why I should care if some rich corporation doesn't make an extra dime.
4) I hope no real rape victim heard you say that.
5) I'll take that seriously when I hear from a lawyer who took you seriously. In the mean time: Mahahahahahaa!

"You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!"

Without going into a long yadda-yadda, all writers are influenced by other writers, so no world is entirely ORIGINAL (TM). And I do respect writers for the particular versions of classic tropes they create. In fact, I often show my respect and passion for their work by writing fanfiction.

"You're acting like spoiled children!"

Am I? Did I make a silly face, stomp my foot, and say "Read MY way or the HIGHWAY"? If I had, I would apologize. Of course, none of that has anything to do with my writing fanfiction, which I try to do with an adult's effort and care.

"Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!"

First, most people don't even read fanfiction unless they've already encountered the original work, giving them a chance to form their own opinion. Second, there's a lot of good fan stories - or ones their readers think are good - out there. Wouldn't that make people want to buy the writer's work? Third, bad fic writers are often fierce fans, buying (or watching) the original work and encouraging others to do so as well. Fourth, there's this little thing called the back button that works well when reading bad stories online. I wish there was a button that gave me my money back for bad tie-in novels.

"You're raping me!"

Unless I'm under some strange mind control, no I'm not. If what actually happened is that I hurt your feelings by writing fanfiction, that's a pity. Really. But I still don't think such writing is wrong nor do many other folks.

"It's trademark infringement!"

I'm no lawyer, but I was under the impression that my original work was under copyright, not trademark. So I think I'll wait for someone with a bit more legal knowledge to talk over this part of the question with me, thanks.

***

Wow, fighting paper tigers is hard work. I think I got a papercut on number four, there! *g*

"You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL(TM) world!"

It's precisely *because* I admire their talent that I'm a fan. I respect their creativity by buying their stuff and spreading the word to my friends. Would anyone in their right minds write fic or draw art about characters they *didn't* think were totally awesome? Especially if they couldn't make a living from it? Get real!

"You're acting like spoiled children!"

No, that would be the whiny little brat playing vampires who won't share any of her toys. But my mother taught me better manners. I always play well with others, especially when it's *their* house I'm visiting.

"Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy the writer's work!"

Funny, all the horrendous crap over on FF.Net didn't hurt "Deathly Hallows" or "Lord of the Rings" sales one little bit. :smiles: And I have the books, DVDs and action figures to prove it.

On the other hand, when an *original* work comes off so bad it makes the likes of "Harry Potter Meets Anime Elf Princess Mary Sue Star Drop And They Defeat The Nasty Evil Dark Lord With Her Special Secret Sparkly-Poo Magic And They Get Married Because They're Soul Mates In !!*Twu Wuv*11!!! And Live Happily Ever After In Mystic Pink Pony Land" start to look good, it's *way* past time for the author, no matter how rich and famous, to call it quits. And take up something less strenuous -- like bricklaying -- instead. ;-)

"It's trademark infringement!"

May technically be infringement of *some* sort but also Fair Use. Unless I do something really stupid, like try to make money off it. In which case, I'd deserve having my arse sued. I repeat: fandom is an act of love not profit. Put *that* in yer pipe an' smoke it, Perry Mason!

"You're raping me!"

To quote some dude I read once: Black is white, the Earth is square, and 2+2=penguin. Seriously, if you believe that writing stories about somebody else's FICTIONAL CHARACTER equals the rape of a REAL LIVE PERSON and should be treated accordingly, then you are (a): scarier than Voldemort, and (b): bug-fuck bonkers. Get help ... NOW!

And don't EVER reproduce. Enough idiots have already peed in the gene pool, thank you very much.

1. So creators riffing off of Shakespeare, Homer, Murasaki, Andersen, and Child ballads are fair game? In the speclit community, at least, there's this little concept called "the genre conversation." This concept acknowledges that nothing is created in a vacuum, and most works of art are responses, often to other works of art. Fanfic can be viewed through that lens.

Alternatively, fanfic can be viewed as a critique/exploration of a source. I write book reviews. I have as much respect for the creator when I write fanfic as when I write a review, and sometimes more.

2. How so? I'm not the one throwing tantrums that people are responding to something I put out in public to be responded to.

3. Actually, I suspect that bad fan stories, like good fan stories, bring more consumers to the original source. People want to see what inspired something, good or bad. They want to know the source for themselves in order to determine if the fan story is good or bad, and why. Often, those who read fan stories end up writing fan stories, and that means they'll want their own copies of the source for reference. It's a happy little capitalist circle, in some respects.

4. As a survivor of sexual assault, my response to this one is: I'm waiting for your apology for even going there.

5. I'm not trying to make a profit off your trademark, so my understanding is that no, it's not.

You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!

So authors of historical fiction and mainstream fiction deserve no respect, is that what you're saying?

Creating original worlds is overrated. What counts is the storytelling. Without good storytelling, an original world is just a boring essay.

you're acting like spoiled children!

Writing fanfic is not an example of "behaving like spoiled children". Whining and yelling because the Author doesn't do what you want, that is behaving like a spoiled child, and, yes, some fans do that (especially Harry Potter fans).
But writing your own version: that is actually more mature behaviour, because you accept that you cannot order the Author about, and if you want these other things to happen, you will have to do the hard work of writing it yourself.

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!

Let's follow the logic tree here.
(a) They read bad fanfic.
More fool them. You should never read fanfic before you've read the original work.

(b) They know that bad fanfic exists, but don't read it.
And this reflects on the original work, how?
Sturgeon's Law applies to fanfic as well as everything else. There will be bad fanfic, quite a lot of it. The fact that there is any fanfic at all is an indication that there are fans of the original, which means that it must be good enough for at least some people to admire. The fact that the fanfic is bad simply means that the fans have little talent, not that the original author has little talent.
They are different people -- you do realize that, don't you?

You're raping me!

Wash your mouth out with soap!

I am a Harry Potter fan!

I don't like your number 2!! (whines, stomps foot, throws tantrum...)

LOL. But really, even with all the wank, we aren't all that bad, right? Only certain parts of the HP population act...uncivillized...right?
(crickets chrip...)

I did say some fans, not many fans. The only reason I mentioned HP as an example is that things like throwing a tantrum about JKR making Harry/Ginny canon is just ludicrous. HP isn't the only fandom that has fans with a strange sense of entitlement -- I can point to New Who also. It seems to occur in newer fandoms, I guess because fandom has become closer to mainstream than it used to be.

Relax, I was just making light. Sometimes I do feel that other fandoms do see HP fandom as a big sea of wank sewage, but I do get over it quickly.

And I hear you, and major word, about your last sentence.

1. You owe me respect for the amount of time I've devoted to watching your show, reading your book, discussing your worlds and let's not forget the amount of money I've spent on your merchandise.

2. "Mummy, I don't want to share my toys. Make them stop!"

3. When you've hired me to be your publicity officer then I'll start being concerned about your profits. Until then, STFU.

4. Don't you dare even go there.

5. What's your trademark? Overprivileged whiny educated person who's better off than 99.9% of the people on the planet?

Edited 2008-01-08 02:04 (UTC)

1. This presupposes a) that we couldn't, haven't, and don't, create original worlds of our own (look at alternate universe fic some time), b) that the original world we're borrowing for our fanfic was perfect and complete the way it was, and couldn't be explored further, and most importantly, c) that fanfic can't be an act of respect.

2. This is a bad faith argument. It allows the arguer to ignore what we're arguing and send us to our beds without supper, something they do not have the authority to do.

3. No, bad writing will do that.

4. This shows terrible disrespect for people who have been raped.

5. *If* I did it to trademarked properties, it would still be fair use. Trademark is there to protect the owners from imitators using their name. We're not competing with the trademark owner, or trying to pass our work off as official and authorised, we're making something totally new. You might as well tell me not to make new recipes including Rice Krispies(tm).

Your #5 is made of win :D

You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!

I do respect them. Whether or not I respect the creator(s) has nothing to do with whether or not I create fan works based on a commercial product.

You're acting like spoiled children!

No. I like sharing my toys, and playing with others.

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!

If this is true, then so is the reverse: good fan stories will make people want to buy more product(s).

You're raping me!

You really need to stop using that word.

It's trademark infringement!

Many legal experts are still arguing this one, so no-one can be sure if it is or isn't. Even if it is, trademark is decided on a case-by-case basis, just like copyright, so no-one can say for sure if a specific case is trademark infringement until it goes to court.

Edited 2008-01-08 13:12 (UTC)

If this is true, then so is the reverse: good fan stories will make people want to buy more product(s).

This is an excellent point -- and the thing is, this worries the pros significantly more than the prospect of bad fics poisoning the well, because what the (smarter) pros are worried about is the "market share" they're losing to the good fic writers.

Some numbers: the average genre novel nowadays sells a *lot* fewer copies than you may think it does. A first genre novel published in hardcover may see around 5000 copies printed, and print runs on subsequent books, if the author is fortunate, will do well to jump to 10K; the ones whose print runs bump to 25K or better are in the top tier of the genre. Now divide those figures by half to two thirds ("printed" doesn't equal "sold", and only a fraction of the novels published do well enough to sell out their print runs).

Result: the average professionally published genre novel these days may be selling in the range of 2000 (low end, first novel) to 10,000 copies.

Yes, I'm simplifying here, and those are hardcover numbers. Some quick asides on mass market paperbacks: (a) the print run numbers for paperback originals are surprisingly similar; (b) a sharply lower percentage of hardcovers make it to mass market reprint these days; (c) author income on mass markets is lower than for hardcovers (especially for tie-ins, where the royalty rates are often much lower).

What this means in terms of fanfic is this:

Fanfic writers whose individual works have more than 2000 views/downloads are "selling" as well as professionally published novelists. Those whose individual works have more than 10,000 views/downloads are "selling" as well as the upper tier of professionally published novelists. And so on. (The top handful of

yuletide writers are probably at least this successful, for instance.)

In a real sense, fic writers are competing with the pros for market share...and in some respects, beating them, because money isn't the only medium of exchange in the equation. The other medium is time, and the time fen spend reading fic is time they're not spending on commercially published books -- so just as DVDs and console games and World of Warcraft are "stealing" time and revenue from commercial print fiction, fanfic's doing the same thing.

So it's not entirely irrational for, say, Laurell K. Hamilton to worry that the droves of fen who fled the Anita Blake series at about [insert title here] because they didn't like the direction things were going might flock to the works of [insert fanwriter here], whose vision of the characters was very different but more palatable to said droves of fen. (In fact, Hamilton got lucky; she picked up a new fanbase that seems to be even bigger than the old one. But one sees the point.)

(This is also one reason pro publishers are keeping a weather eye on fanwriters as a source of revenue. Irrespective of wank, Cassie Claire had lots and lots of readers -- and her pro publisher doubtless banked on many to most of them following her and buying her under the Cassandra Clare byline.)

////

None of the foregoing should be taken as polemic either for or against fanfic generally. As I commented in the exchange with

doingsoso above, one of my key observations about fanfic issues generally is that they're complicated, often more so than either the fen or the pros think. This is an aspect of that complexity, and one that I think merits careful thought by all sides.

Wow, that's fascinating. Thanks for that information. I already knew that most authors don't make enough money to make a living out of their writing. I was just having a similar conversation the other day with someone who told me that an author paid his family and friends to buy his books, since just buying a couple of books a week was enough to make the publisher think the book was doing well. Which is just remarkable; I had no idea book sales were low enough to be manipulated like that.

I accept your point about fanfic 'competing' with pro fic, even if it is indirectly, because I know that I've read fewer books since I've been reading fanfiction. Obviously, I don't agree that that means fanfic should be stopped, as some pro authors argue it should be. As if that were even possible at this point!

As you said, the issue is complicated, and the move to 'user-generated content' is a much wider social movement that just happens to include fanfic and fanart and favids, as well as machinima, mash-ups, RPG's, and all kinds of other things. Ultimately, authors and publishers and the wider entertainment industry are going to have to adapt to the new market conditions to survive.

Thank you so much for your insightful comment. That's an area I had never really considered. The internet is suddenly giving power to a lot of "ametures" be it fanfic or a video on YouTube, and I know I don't always stop to think about how the various PTB take it.

Interesting. It seems that you know what is happening in the world of publishing nowadays. The competition of the free time of consumers is fierce. One group of people who suffer from that are professional published writers; I agree with you on that. I even admit that if there are fanfics available original works will get less of the time of the readers than fanfics.

I would like to add something, though. The whining of the writers seems to be based on the belief that if there wasn't fanfiction the writers would sell more books. I don't think that they would.

What is the factor that has the greatest impact on a writer's number of sold books? In my opinion, the answer is the strengths and weaknesses of the book in the competition with other available activities. People choose the best purpose for their money and time. The competitor could be a computer came, trip to Ibiza, a new shirt, fanfiction or whatever. If the writer's book is the best use for the money the fan can find at the moment, the fan buys it. The fan might even read it, if the time is right.

What is the significance of fanfiction, then? In my opinion: less significant than is implied by professional writers. The number of books a writer writes is the same whether there is fanfiction or not. A writer can only sell copies of the books s/he has written, nothing else. A professional writer cannot hope to write enough to fill the fans every free moment with a previously unread text. A reader can't buy something that doesn't exist.

A writer can and, in my opinion, should hope to gain a fandom that is big enough to give him/her a living. Fandom's are great marketing channels. If a writer gains a fandom, there might be fanfiction (it doesn't happen automatically), and then there is the chance that the writer benefits from the fanfiction and other fannish activities. Fanfiction keeps the interest of the fans in the work of an author alive through hiatuses between publications. However, I think that, for the most part, fictive works and their creators never gain fandoms.

Ela

You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!
I do respect the writers. Have you ever heard of "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"? That's what fanfic is - the imitation meant as flattery. Fanfic writers aren't writing fanfic to insult the Original Author, they are writing because they love the Original Author's writing. If you can't see that, then I pity your fans.

You're acting like spoiled children!
Out of you and me, you're the one yelling "My toy! My toy!".

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!
If that is so, then they were just looking for an excuse not to buy the writer's work anyway. A dedicated fan would take the time to find good fan stories instead of bad ones, and in all likelihood, if they haven't bought the original writing already, the fanfic will prompt them to do so.

An example: In the last three years I have bought Final Fantasy VII (PC), Final Fantasy VIII (PC), Final Fantasy X (PS2), Final Fantasy X-2 (PS2), Final Fantasy I & II (GBA), Final Fantasy IV (GBA), Final Fantasy III (DS), Kingdom Hearts (PS2), Kingdom Hearts 2 (PS2), the KH2 strategy guide (book), Final Fantasy XII (PS2), the Final Fantasy XII strategy guide (book), Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children (DVD), Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus (PS2), Final Fantasy: Spirits Within (DVD), Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions (PSP), an upgrade for my computer that included a video card, a PS2, a DS Lite, the Transformers movie (2007), Transformers: The Movie (1986), Linkin Park: Minutes To Midnight (CD), The Transformers Complete DVD Collection (G1 cartoon - 17 DVDs), Legends Megatron, Starscream, Barricade, Ratchet, Jazz, Bumblebee, Galaxy Force Vector Prime, Deluxe Arcee, G1 Jetfire and Masterpiece Starscream.

How is it that fanfic - good or bad - has stopped me from buying the original works of my fandoms? I really suspect that Square Enix, Sony, Nintendo, Hasbro, Paramount, Mad Man, Linkin Park, and whoever the publishers of those strategy guides are have all got their fair share of money out of me.

I am also intending on buying a PSP, Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings (DS), Final Fantasy I & II (PSP), Final Fantasy IV (DS), Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core (PSP), Legends Megatron and Starscream, G1 Optimus Prime, G1 Ultra Magnus, some form of Rodimus toy, Softimus Prime, Cybertron Primus, Cybertron Soundwave.

The owners of the original material that I am a fan of will keep getting money out of me, and all because I started reading fanfic based on their works.

You're raping me!
You have a very strange idea of what rape is.

It's trademark infringement!
I know little about trademark and copyright law, but I do know those laws exist to stop people from making money out of other people's property. I am making no money.

Edited 2008-01-10 15:37 (UTC)

HOW ON EARTH IS THIS BINGO? BUNCH OF BITCHING AND WHINING AND REPEATING THE SAME COMMENT OVER AND OVER, IS ALL. THE ORIGINAL IS SELF-CONGRATULATORY AND SIMPLISTIC BUT AT LEAST IT APPROACHED BEING A BINGO CARD.

Seriously though, this is all as painful as it is funny. Like a particularly awkward episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I should probably leave, you guys, UGH, I CAN'T WATCH

lol jk I can watch.

1) We clearly have different notions of what constitutes 'respect'.

2) No, I learned how to share in kindergarten.

3) Bad fanfiction makes me stop reading that fan-writer; however, good fanfiction has kept me reading bad writers and paying for their books long past the time I would ordinarily have stopped because other people kept my love for their characters alive after they had ceased to be able to.

4) That word, it does not mean what you think it means. Your misuse of it is disrespectful to those who cannot help knowing.

5) I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV--but my understanding of the meaning of those words is rather different from yours. Here are some people who are lawyers, and this is what they have to say: (links)

Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!

Actually, I usually only read in fandoms in which I've already read the writer's work. However, if I come across a story about which I've heard a lot of good things, and I like the premise in the summary, and I want to read it, I will generally read the original work first, so I can be familiar with the canon before reading the fan story.

Fan fiction promotes writers' works.

1. You owe the writers respect for creating an ORIGINAL (TM) world!

I don't owe respect to anyone. My respect must be gained.

According to my experiences, so called original worlds that have been created for fantasy stories--you would admit that in fantasy there are valid reasons for expectations of creating original worlds, right?--are not too original. What's original about Tolkien's Middle-Earth? The topography of the place is very much like the real Earth. Same kinds of plants and animals are easy to spot. Dwarfs and hobits, both have an equivalent in reality. There are creatures that we don't know on our Earth, like orcs. Or do we? Orcs aren't too different from trolls of folk lore in the cultures of Europe.

Anyone who knows the basics of fantasy knows that the world that is created for the story must not be too different from the one we live in: such a story would have no meaning in the minds of the readers.

3. Bad fan stories will make people not want to buy a writer's work!

Even bad fan stories are indicators of a fan base. Without fans there isn't much hope of a show, a book, a movie or any other work to bring enough money to the authors. Bad fan stories come only after the fans have accessed the original.

- Anti-Fanfic Bingo, part four

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*good* fanfic and market dilution

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good fanfic and market dilution

Re: good fanfic and market dilution

Re: good fanfic and market dilution

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