Anti-fanfic Bingo, redux

[mirabile-dictu.livejournal.com]

All right! Our first round of Anti-Fanfic Bingo went beautifully, and we have plans for your responses, but let's move on to the second row of the card:



How would you respond to these accusations? Just like last time, please tell ComRel!

Graphic by the wonderful Ciderpress.

Ithiliana's post that started it all is here.

-- femmequixotic, bethbethbeth, ciderpress, mirabile_dictu, shrift, svmadelyn
Community Relations Committee

Comments

[amireal.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time you should be learning how to become a real writer!

Define 'real writer' and then I'll get back to you on that.

It's totally different if the author is dead!

I don't have anything short or pithy for that because it's so entrenched in logical fallacy and usually attached to a much larger fallacy that I'd run out of room in comments simply trying to boil down why that's so fucking wrong.

...that doesn't mean I won't try. Quick take down: Really being 6 feet under is all it takes? Really? Your precious super amazing works will not be FOREVER MOLESTED BY FANFIC if you're dead when it happens?

It's like you came to my house and stole me car!

Can we please stop equating physical property with intellectual property? Please?

[serrana.livejournal.com]

*cough* Usually I am thinking of the children. I'm thinking, it's so nice the kids have gone to bed, so I can go read fic.

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Zing!

[kangeiko]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

All those scriptwriters penning episodes of Star Trek or LOST or any other show are essentially penning script-format fanfic - are they not 'real writers', then?

Also, more pithily - I AM!



It's totally different if the author is dead!

The various estates of copyright-protected deceased authors wouldn't agree with you there.



How would you feel if sombody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?

Like I've hit the big-time and should have a big party to celebrate. "Everyone! I have fans! And they're writing! Crack open the champagne!"



It's like you came by my house and stole my car!

Actually, it's more like I came by your house and stole the light from your streetlight... it's hurt you not one iota.


You have to think of the children!

... because a sizeable number of fanfic writers start off writing well below the age of majority. Won't somebody please stop them from other depraved activities like painting and forming long-lasting friendships, too?? Think of the terrible side-effects of writing: improved grammar, better social skills, an increasing tendency to say 'thank you'! The horror!

[saralogan.livejournal.com]

Actually, taking the light out of a streetlight could hurt people. My block doesn't have street lights and it's got the highest rate of sexual assaults in the town (which is terrifying).

[minkhollow]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!
Ah, but fanfic IS how I learned - how I learned I wanted to write in the first place, how I got over the worst of my writing skills, and how I found people willing to help me get better. It's far easier to cut your chops on a pre-existing world and characters than it is to try to make it all up from scratch on your first attempt. Concrit comes more easily as well, since it's easier for an audience to say exactly what needs fixing.
And I am a Real Writer, thank you very much.

It's totally different if the author is dead!
Only because there are less or no copyright issues attached. People have expanded on each other's stories for pretty much as long as there have been stories to expand on.

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?
Extraordinarily pleased that someone found my work inspiring enough to go 'well, what if...' and write down where that train of thought took them. I'd probably take the Pratchett approach (i.e. don't expect me to read it, the better to prevent murky legal waters), especially if it were for an ongoing series. But I started off writing fic, so I can hardly tell my potential fans no, now can I?

You have to think of the children!
Not all porn is fanfic, and not all fanfic is porn. Further, the Internet is really, really great for many child-safe things. Anyway, past a certain point, you have to encourage children to think for themselves; part of responsible adulthood is making independent decisions.
Children's parents have to think of the children first. Beyond that, there's quite a lot of non-graphic entertainment out there, both fanfic and otherwise.

[kindkit.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

Are things only worth doing if we do them professionally? Should all the people who enjoy playing tennis give up because they're never going to play at Wimbledon like the Real Tennis Players? Should all the amateur musicians playing Mozart or the Beatles (music they didn't write!!!) let their instruments gather dust just because people don't pay to hear them?

And the distinction isn't always a matter of talent. There are plenty of gifted fanwriters who just happen to have other careers they're committed to, or who simply prefer to write as a hobby.

[ivy03.livejournal.com]

Are things only worth doing if we do them professionally?
Word. My mother was upset at me for writing fanfic because if all I write is fanfic, I'll never win a Pulitzer. I tried pointing out that I'd never win a Pulitzer anyway...

[summertea.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to be come a Real Writer!
All the people who write are "real writers". You don't have to be published or be a brilliant writer to be a "real writer". (What the hell is a Real Writer anyway?! EVERYONE'S A WRITER.)

It's totally different if the author is dead!
No.

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?
The same way if someone drew fanart of my characters: Absolutely ecstatic. So happy I would be reduced to complete gibberish for a really really long time.

It's like you came by my house and stole my car!
I don't even know how to counter this one because it's just so wrong wrong wrong. Material property = Intellectual property -> does not compute.

You have to think of the children!
Sorry, guys. I started reading "adult" books when I was in middle school. I started reading fic at around the same time. I have friends who started writing fic at age 14. "The children" are perfectly happy with this fandom life, thank you.

[erinya.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

But my goal (at the moment) is not to be a professional writer at all. I write fanfic because I enjoy writing it and others enjoy reading it. That's real enough for me.

It's totally different if the author is dead!

This leads from the "fanfic hurts the pro writer personally!" stance, I think. The thing is, fanfic doesn't affect you personally, or at all, except to the extent you choose to be offended by it. Kind of like the way gay people getting married doesn't actually affect the sanctity of hetero marriages. Someone lacks the ability to properly analyze the cause/effect relationship here.

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?

Absolutely freakin' fabulous. Like I had made it. Because that would mean that my world had become the fanwriter's world to a small extent. That my characters were interesting enough to make people want to follow them outside the bounds of the story I wrote, to ask the questions I didn't answer, to explore possibilities I didn't choose. It would mean that I did something RIGHT. It would mean that I'd hooked 'em. And it would mean that they'd buy the sequel...

It's like you came by my house and stole my car!

No, it's like I made a replica of your car, tricked it out with entirely new features and put it on display (for free, to the public) because your car was just that cool.

You have to think of the children!

No, I don't. And if I had to, I'd think that a lot of fanfic writers are children. I wrote my first fanfic at age 12. I didn't know that other people did it, too. It's a natural expression of creativity, and as natural as my healthily developing sexuality at that age. But I have a feeling the people arguing this point don't approve of the latter, either.

Besides, anyone who thinks kids' minds are pure and innocent prior to outside contamination is crashingly naive and must have blocked out puberty altogether.

[the-drifter.livejournal.com]

#1: If learning to be a Real Writer means trading free membership in a community of thousands where people will line up to edit, read, and critique my work for a spot in a degree program where I have to get in line to pay someone certified to provide the same services, then thanks, but I'll stick with being a Fake Writer.

#3: Thrilled that I'd built a world good enough that someone else wanted to play in it.

#5: If I'd known about fanfic when I was a child, I would have gotten serious about writing a lot sooner.

[kerravonsen]

It's a waste of time you should be learning how to become a real writer!

(a) Why can't writing be a hobby, just like knitting, woodworking, pottery, sketching, photography, singing, playing a musical instrument, acting (seen any amateur productions?), jewelry making, sewing or cooking? What makes it so different to these other creative hobbies?
(b) Feedback is better than money. I already earn money at my paid work.

You have to think of the children!

(a) It is not my job to police children's access to the internet, that is the parents' responsibility
(b) Most fans put warnings on their adult-only stuff; that's sufficiently responsible
(c) Fanfic does not equal Porn, for goodness' sake!

[anextropian.livejournal.com]

1. It is already being a real writer.
2. Among those difference, there is no difference in whether fanfiction should be allowed.
3. Quite good.
4. If making a car were easier and all the material were for free, then it would be more like examining the car and using ideas from it to make a new one.
5. Of course reading fanfiction is good for children, even if it deals with sexual matters.

[twistedchick]

All writing is real; it all develops writing skills. There is no unreal writing. And anyone who writes is a real writer.

(The "you're wasting your time" argument is often used by people who either have no imagination or who envy the ability to write.)

[twistedchick]

And it's not like stealing a car, it's like standing on a different hillside looking at the same sunset. There's enough sunset to go around.

On a more practical level, fan writers who care about canon often spend enormous amounts of time and money and effort to make sure they have the source material -- buying full sets of tapes and DVDs of a series, and then more tapes and DVDs of other performances by actors who were in the series. The producers and studios do not lose out monetarily from the devotion of fans; they sell much more than they might otherwise sell.

[sundancekid.livejournal.com]

Gold star for using the Simpsons font to think of the children. :D

[ciderpress.livejournal.com]

Hee! Thank you! I rest easy that at least one other person out there got the lame, lame joke. :D

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

I write, I publish, and people read my work. How is that not "real"?

I think what you mean, though, is that I should become a professional writer. To which I would counter, You should stop playing golf/tennis/backgammon on the weekends and learn how to be a real athlete! You should stop knitting scarves for your friends and learn how to be a real clothing manufacturer! You should stop playing the piano in the evening and learn to be a real musician! Doesn't make much sense, does it? That's because you already understand that people have hobbies, things they do for fun and from which they get great satisfaction even though it doesn't pay the bills.

It's possible you also mean that I should become a writer of original fiction. I strongly disagree with calling those writers "real writers," because lots and lots of writers have made their careers based on transformative work. Was Shakespeare not a Real Writer? What about Gregory Maguire? You really don't want me to list every professional and widely respected writer who's done work based on someone else's art, do you? Furthermore, why should I write original fiction? And how do you know I'm not writing original fiction in addition to my fanfiction?

It's totally different if the author is dead!

So Tolkien fanfic is fine?

Yeah. Didn't think so.

It's not totally different legally -- because a recently-dead author's work is probably still under copyright and his/her estate has the rights. It could be considered different ethically, if we're working from the idea that I mustn't do anything that might hurt the author's feelings or perturb the author's calm; Tolkien isn't around to blanch at my elf-pr0n. But that idea is silly, anyway. People say things all the time that perturb authors and hurt their feelings. Hell, critics get paid a great deal of money to do exactly that, and no one's questioning their right to piss authors off. And it's not totally different artistically, because the work exists separate from the person who created it. The work is there, exactly the same, whether its creator is alive or dead.

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?

I would feel flattered if it were nice fanfic! If it were weird fanfic, I'd feel amused. If it were critical fanfic, I would probably feel a bit sad that someone had disliked my work so much, but that's no different from how I'd feel after a lousy review. I hope I'd feel motivated to take the fanfic author's criticisms to heart and use them to improve my writing in the future.

It's like you came by my house and stole my car!

It's not at all like that, in so very very many ways.

If I steal your car, then I have one car and you have no cars. You are carless. If I write fanfic based on your book, you still have your book. You can still make ungodly amounts of money off your book. Everything you had before, you still have. The problem here is that you THINK you had something that you never actually had, and my writing fanfic is merely alerting you to a preexisting absence. You THINK you had the ability to control the ideas you put out into the world. You THINK you had the ability to prevent me from creating things based on your work. Moreover, for some strange reason, you THINK that if you lose these abilities, you are losing something vitally important and valuable to you. You are wrong on all three counts.

You have to think of the children!

Oh, you mean like libraries and bookstores think of the children when they put big RATED NC-17 labels on books that contain explicit sex? Wait. They don't do that. But fandom does.

[allyndra.livejournal.com]

The problem here is that you THINK you had something that you never actually had, and my writing fanfic is merely alerting you to a preexisting absence. I greatly admire how well you articulated this argument.

[vass]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

When someone says that, I wonder what they're selling; because as far as I know, the only way to become a writer is to write, and it doesn't really matter what genre you're writing in, only that you keep improving and learning and trying new things.

It's totally different if the author is dead!

Yes, because if it's such a disrespectful and immoral thing to do, it's so much better to do it over someone's dead body!

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfic about YOUR story?

I suspect this question really means 'if someone wrote fanfic you didn't like.' And the answer is: I would be more OK with that than I would be with trying to prevent people from writing fanfic. Of course I've read fanfic I disliked and disapproved of - fanfic involves expressing opinions about works, and not everyone's opinion is the same as mine - but that doesn't mean I think they shouldn't have written it, or had an opinion in the first place.

It's like you came by my house and stole my car!

And yet, somehow, you still seem to have your car. And your creation.

You have to think of the children!

When I was nine I wrote a My Little Pony/Silver Brumby crossover, and it was unintentionally hilarious. When I was fifteen, I went to my parents and said "I want to read erotica on the internet. Do I have your permission?" and they said yes, because they had brought me up as well as they could, and trusted my maturity and ability to choose suitable reading material - just as I trusted them enough to ask them. And it didn't do me any harm - in fact, it gave me a community that I love and am still involved in over ten years later.

[tacky-tramp.livejournal.com]

Yes, because if it's such a disrespectful and immoral thing to do, it's so much better to do it over someone's dead body!

I LOL'd so hard. Win.

[piratemistress.livejournal.com]

You have to think of the children!

I think of children often - the children who watch twenty-five hours of television a week and can't concentrate long enough to read three pages of a challenging novel. If they're reading appropriately rated fanfic, at least they're reading *something*.

And if they should pick up the pen - and compose something longer than a text message, so that perhaps future generations of video-gamers and movie-renters will have some entertainment - even better.

Parents should take responsibility for protecting home computers and enforcing consequences for underage kids reading clearlyt labeled adult content, if the parents wish to do so.

[shayheyred.livejournal.com]

"I have no interest in becoming a 'real writer' if by that you mean a professional, paid writer. I've already made my career choices; I write fanfic to entertain myself and others, and because I love ths source material and would love more of it. I am not embarrassed by that -- so why is my career any of your business?"

[lorax.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!
Like everyone who plays tennis should train for a career? Or everyone who jogs should train for a marathon? Writing, when done for money, is hard work - just like any job. Fanfic writers are writing as a hobby. It's a way to enjoy their favorite entertainment venues in a new way, relax, and sometimes socialize with other fans through their work. Not everyone wants to write just so they can hone their skills to publish the next great work of literature - some people just want to enjoy themselves.

It's totally different if the author is dead!
Why? Why is writing published additions to or explorations of a dead author's universe considered an homage, while the same thing written for a living author is theft or something along those lines?

How would you feel if somebody wrote fanfiction about your story?
Honestly, I would be flattered. No matter how bad the fanfiction is, no matter how much it warps the characters from how I see them. No matter if it was slash or het or weird mpreg things that make my head spin - I would be flattered. People rarely write fanfiction for something they hate, after all. They're writing because they loved something I created and wanted to explore the world further, and that would be a gratifying thing.

It's like you came by my house and stole my car!
Whaaaa? Fans ARE THE ONES WHO BUY THINGS. Fannish people are the madwomen and men who buy the extended collector's editions, and the comic-book prequels, and then statuettes and collect the toys. We ARE your consumer base. Just because we borrow characters to write stories about them doesn't mean we're stealing any money out of your pocket. If anything, we help add more - because we're also the ones who pimp the series/books/movies to friends, and try to drag other friends into our new fannish obsessions.

You HAVE to think of the children!
For one thing, I'd much rather my kids stumble across a smutty story, regardless of who is involved, then see some of the pointlessly violence-glorifying things on the news today. But that aside - fanfiction is, for the most part, very clearly marked with headers and ratings that make it easy to avoid reading what you don't want to read. It's easier for children to stumble across GENUINE porn than fanfiction porn on the internet. And you don't see any sign of the REAL porn being taken down. Children shouldn't be allowed free access to the internet anyway. Be a parent, watch your kids, and stop expecting the rest of the world to do it for you.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time you should be learning how to become a real writer!

I have no desire to be a professional writer, if that's what you mean. I have a job. I went to school for a long time to get it, and I'm really, really good at it. I write for fun. And if that's a problem, you'd better tell all those kids who will never be pro sports players to stop playing.

It's totally different if the author is dead!

Why?

How would you feel if someone wrote fanfic about your story?

They did, and I danced around the room for hours. Someone liked my story enough to want to write something! WOW!

It's like you came by my house and stole my car.

No, it's not.

Okay, if you need more than that: if I steal your car, your car is gone. If I write fanfic based on your story, it's still there. One of these things is not like the other.

[dr-jekyl.livejournal.com]

You have to think of the children!

Actually, quite a lot of fan fiction is written by children for other children. Have a quick trawl through the most popular categories on fanfiction.net, and have a guess at the average age of the authors. I myself came into fandom as a minor - 15 - and was lucky enough to have several older fans provide me with the help I needed to become a competent writer.

Further, fandom already does its part in making sure that content is read by the intended audience. Over the years, a detailed system of warnings has evolved that rates fiction, not only by age but by content. These ratings are often more accurate, thorough and conservative than the ratings you will find on movies, television shows and music. A movie studio, for example, makes money based on the number of people who view the movie; the larger the audience, the more money they make. This gives them considerable incentive to ensure a movie that is intended for adults receives a rating that indicates that it is suitable for teens. Fan fiction authors, many of whom are parents themselves, do not make any money at all regardless of audience size. They have no motivation to rate below the intended audience, and thus tend to err on the side of caution.

Ultimately, much like the ratings systems for film, music and television, it is up to the parents, not the works' creator(s) or distributor(s) to ensure that the age and content recommendations are followed.

[anextropian.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would say that fan fiction writers have a motivation to broaden the audience, but in a way so that it attracts people who would like it (which is why things are labeled as such so that one can tell people who don't like it to just go away rather than comment negatively on it). The reason is so that the author would earn more praise and whatnot.

[starry-diadem.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time you should be learning how to become a real writer!
Real as opposed to what? Believe me, I look in the mirror at my all-too-substantial form and I am as real as you get. I am a real writer; I just don't write for publication.


It's totally different if the author is dead!
And can't have a personal reaction to the fanfic you mean? So the reason live authors can't have fanfic written on their work is because it hurts their feelings? Great intellectual argument there.

Otherwise it's a nonsense. If you believe that there's some legal argument at work here, that copyright prohibits fanfic, then it doesn't matter whether or not the original copyright-holder is breathing or six-feet under. We'd just argue fair use, originator living or dead.


how would you feel if someone wrote fanfic about your story
It happened to me twice over the same story sequence. On the whole I was flattered. It meant that I'd written something that resonated with its readers, that had provoked a response in them, that had enough emotional punch for them to want to continue playing. Cool.


It's like you came to my house and stole my car!
Rolls eyes. In what way is it theft? In what way are you materially harmed? It's not like people will pay for my fics rather than buy the original source material. If anything, we prolong the life of the source and improve your income from it.


You have to think of the children!
Er, no. I don't. It is not my responsibility to self-censor to protect your children. I don't write for children. I don't post where children should see it. It's your responsibility to monitor your children's on-line activities, and I flatly refuse to allow you to shuffle that responsibility off on to me.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_workinprogress/]

It's a waste of time; you should be learing how to become a Real Writer!
1)What the HELL is a "Real Writer"?

or 2)I've got a job already and I'm quite happy with it. I decide how I spend my free time. All hobbies "waste" time. It's none of your business.


It's totally different if the author is dead.
I think I heard some authors turning in their graves with all the badfic out there... oh right. Not helping.
... I don't get it. Following the two main strains of arguments I'm either stealing or committing a moral offense.
Stealing doesn't get any better if the original owner isn't around anymore. I'd just be stealing from whomever inherited the rights then.
And ethically.. that's about the same as talking badly about somebody who isn't around to defend themselves.



[somebody writing fic about my stories]
Flattered! Somebody liked what I wrote!
And if it's really really bad. I'd spork my brain and hit the back button.
Plus, it's not like this doesn't happen all the time. Well, not with my stories. I'd have to write more than 5. And, you know, stuff that people want to actually read ;P.


[It's like stealing your car.]
That analogy just, well, sucks. Because we aren't talking about material things. You can still use your stories while I'm "stealing" your characters. You don't have any financial loss (as far as I can tell.)
If you want to stick with the cars. It's more like you bought or made yourself a really cool, expensive car. And then I go and buy/build a matchbox version of it and take it to the playground to play with other kids and their matchbox cars. And then we will go and check out the big ones. Cause the big ones are so much cooler. Most of the time.

[OMG. TEH CHILDREN!?! THINK OF TEH CHILDREN.]
... *silence*.
I don't think any children are harmed by there somewhere existing stuff that isn't meant for them.
As for children finding said stuff. There are warning labels, and a few hurdles in place with any responsible site anyways.
Nobody blames the company who makes bleach if the toddler manages to pry it from the safe place the parents put it in, and managed to open the safety cap and drinks it. Or maybe the parents didn't put it a safe place to being with. Not my fault. And even there is no safety cap. The person who bought it knows it. They should have taken appropriate safety measures.
It's not my responsibility to watch all the children in the world.
But more importantly: Not all bottles contain bleach. Or alcohol. Or whatever else comes in bottles and isn't for children. (God, I hate analogies).
There's plenty of stuff out there that is "safe" for children. And in recent years, quite a few kids with their own lemonade stand.
When did fanfic ever become just about porn? It's not even the majority of fic out there! That's like saying tv (on a regular schedule, not during the strike) is ALL about reality tv. It's a big big world out there.

[penguin-attie.livejournal.com]

It's a waste of time; you should be learning how to become a Real Writer!

(http://xkcd.com/359/)

It's called a hobby. Get over it.

[proserpina-kore.livejournal.com]

This is a great response.

[perfica.livejournal.com]

1. So you shouldn't play sport unless you can bat in the Major Leagues?

2. ::shakes head:: I don't wish death upon authors; what are you, some kind of freak?

3. a) Like 99% of authors in the world, I wouldn't have a clue, so why should I care? b) Flattered

4. So I took something away from you forever? You can never write about those characters again? Cool! Now where's my residuals?

5. Children is to writing like cheese is to writing a song.

[proserpina-kore.livejournal.com]

you have to think of the children

Yes I do, because the children already have enough bad influences in their lives. If there was no fanfic, who would show them that it's okay to have an imagination, be admired by their peers and have fun whilst learning a practical skill?

it's totally different if the author is dead

Well, duh - they can't tell you how thrilled they are that you've been inspired by their work, can they?

[cesperanza.livejournal.com]

You should be learning how to become a Real Writer

Writing is a verb; a real writer writes. That's how you know they're a real writer.