A Question....

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

Has there been any consideration about age restrictions at the suggested archive?

As a long-time, multi-fandom participant and talking with another one this week over the issue at LJ and with fanlib, two things came up:

1. As long as we're paying someone else to host our things, they can decide not to host specific things. Also, people will attempt to make a profit off of us in any way possible. The best solution is to host our own site with a dedicated server than can house us all.

2. We were talking and we both agreed that if there was a multi-fandom fanfiction hub, we wouldn't want it to be along the lines of ff.net. Everyone I know cringes when a news source goes to ff.net to talk about the "fandom phenomenon". That said, admitting fic.'s based on quality is tricky and subjective. If we create something, for ourselves, then I hope that we would both cover ourselves legally and present ourselves professionally. There is a legal issue involving minors and NC-17 material than can only really be remedied by not allowing minors. The easiest solution seems to be creating a panfandom archive for underage readers either in association with or as part of the larger archive, requiring a age statement to sign up and logged-in-only access to adult material. Also, if there are no underage readers allowed, then there is less likelihood of creating another ff.net.

I know that this will probably not be a popular opinion. I know that many people in fandom, particularly on LJ are underage and "passing" or "socking" in order to read adult material. I'm not saying that some underage readers cannot handle adult material or aren't already participating in adult activities; however, from a legal standpoint, it seems more responsible to take precautions.

Additionally, in light of the recent LJ events, it's obvious that much of what gets archives, websites, journals and fic.'s shut down is a perceived danger to the "childrenz". If this is a site by adults, for adults it's less likely to come under that sort of negative fire. After all, we're going to have to deal with the legal ramifications of intellectual property and copyright laws already.

I'm truly not trying to rock the boat or ignore the many and important contributions of underage fans to fandom. I'm just trying to ascertain how the issues of liability will be dealt with.

Comments

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

IIRC this was discussed in the original post in astolat's journal and thought was leaning towards having a theoretical but not actual system of age-restricted material - where everything is hosted on one archive but if you're not logged in you have to click a button saying you're over 18 and if you are logged in you have to be over 18 - or say you're over 18 - to see R18(NC-17) material.

My thoughts on this are pretty mixed since I've been reading "adult" material for many years, since well before I was technically of age to do so, and I don't and never did feel particularly disturbed. (Although I'm aware that the notion disturbs some authors...!) OTOH, I understand the desire by people running things to cover their asses. The only thing I do feel strongly is that under-18s should not be ghetto-ized away. And I wonder what the response is to under-18s writing the porn...!

Additionally, in light of the recent LJ events, it's obvious that much of what gets archives, websites, journals and fic.'s shut down is a perceived danger to the "childrenz".

Yeah, but on an indirect harm principle - that something about the content will lead to children being harmed - as opposed to a direct harm principle where children are actually harmed by the existence of porn/the reading of porn. the latest kerfuckle - as I understand it, and comments on CNet aside - was that the interests function allowed paedophiles to network. Not that anything paedophiles were doing on LJ was harmful to children. the veracity of this is obviously debatable but I do think that was the underlying principle there.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

where everything is hosted on one archive but if you're not logged in you have to click a button saying you're over 18 and if you are logged in you have to be over 18 - or say you're over 18 - to see R18(NC-17) material.

Yeah. If there were any sort of age restriction, it shouldn't be anything more than that. Most people are not going to be keen for a new archive if they can only post their adult fic locked to members only, and a lot of people will refuse to link, rec, etc. fic that's locked or passworded in any way, so it's just a bad situation all around, especially when there are plenty of other archives that don't make you jump through hoops (a new archive is going to attract people by offering more options, not fewer!).

[abbylee]

I thought that this is what the people who have legal experience are being contacted for. (1) To figure out which country to physically host the servers, so that it will not break the local laws of the hosts. (2) To figure out how to make sure that material is best labelled (etc) to make sure that those who have local laws against specific material will not accidentally break them.

[faith-girl222.livejournal.com]

i didn't think there was an actual legal ruling saying it was illegal. no one stops underage kids from buying books from the romance section of a bookstore (and a lot of those books are pretty graphic), nor are they barred from certain sections of libraries. or have things changed since i was a kid?

and then, there are and have been kids under 18 writing "adult" fanfiction - what do we do about them?

[eridanusus.livejournal.com]

I know that's what FictionAlley does, or at least they did last time I went there - which was admittedly a while ago. I'm pretty sure they also skim over new fic being posted to make sure it's not riddled with typoes.

[rez-lo.livejournal.com]

Also, if there are no underage readers allowed, then there is less likelihood of creating another ff.net.

If this is to be a panfannish archive it makes little sense to exclude fans on the basis of age. Nor would I as a fannish writer/reader want to participate in an archive that did so. The underlying ethos, as I understand it, is one of inclusion, legal necessity notwithstanding.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

IIRC this was discussed in the original post in astolat's journal and thought was leaning towards having a theoretical but not actual system of age-restricted material

I must have missed that; I'll go look for it, thank you. The proposed 'theoretical' system would work and is essentially one of the option I foresaw.

My thoughts on this are also mixed. I didn't really get into fandom much before I was 18 and in my first fandom, I wasn't really interested in adult material so it was non-issue. However, my friend, who's been in fandom for almost 15 years was definitely underage when she got involved. I don't know what the answer is. The library isn't going to restrict books to children based on their perceived appropriateness for the age; they expect the parents to do that.

Unfortunately, for some reason, parents seem to think that they aren't responsible for what their children see online, the website is. It's an unfair double standard, but it's one we have to deal with.

And I wonder what the response is to under-18s writing the porn...!
I considered this, but I have no idea as to the answer. You can't stop underage people writing things based on age-appropriateness, but if you let them post them and don't let them read it seems hypocritical; I know. Search me on how to deal with it.

Yeah, but on an indirect harm principle - that something about the content will lead to children being harmed - as opposed to a direct harm principle where children are actually harmed by the existence of porn/the reading of porn.

I agree in relation to this latest issue, but I do think that a group of "concerned parentz" could hit an archive based on the "providing pornography to minors" principle. Which could and almost certainly would shut down an archive. That's why I wanted to know what was being considered.

he only thing I do feel strongly is that under-18s should not be ghetto-ized away. I agree as well. No one wants to be someone's ugly step-child and I wouldn't want to make underage fen feel that way. I don't know what the answer is, but I hope it's one that is respectful and safe for everyone.

I'm really not truly to be a big bad bully, I'm just trying to see what the consensus is and what we're considering.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

But there are laws, in the U.S. at least about pornography. The line between erotic fiction and pornography in the U.S. is a bit blurry on the internet.

I was just trying to find out what people were thinking about on this issue.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying that they should be excluded and I don't want to be involved in an elitist or exclusionist archive either. I just wanted to know how the issue of adult material was going to be handled.

[bluevsgrey.livejournal.com]

In my opinion not allowing fen under 18 into the archive is ridiculous. Isn't the whole point of the archive to be a place for all of us? How, may I ask you, is it supposed to be a place for all of fandom if you plan to completely throw out the younger subset of it? And to say that denying them posting access will somehow vastly improve the quality of the fic at the archive is counterproductive because not only are you generalizing that most badfic come from younger fen, your not actually creating any solution to the fact that any author can and probably has written badfic.

I just think that instead of staying, "You kids get outta my lawn," we should be thinking more along the lines of, "The pool is dangerous for young kids/those with sensitive dispositions, because you can get in over your head, however their is plenty of other things for you to play with, like the swing set. Isn't swinging fun?"

For an example of this, I believe(and correct me if I am wrong because it has been forever since I have been in the hp fandom) that schnoogle only allows up to R and that all of the NC17 fic goes into Dark Arts.

[franzeska]

The law (in the US anyway) treats the internet and bookstores differently.

[franzeska]

No one has made any hard and fast rules yet. People were discussing it on the original post.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

"The pool is dangerous for young kids/those with sensitive dispositions, because you can get in over your head, however their is plenty of other things for you to play with, like the swing set. Isn't swinging fun?"

Which, actually, is what I was trying to suggest/ask. I'm not saying that underage fen should be excluded, I just wanted to know what the options were for protection as well as inclusion on this matter.

I think doing something along the lines of fiction alley or schnoogle would be fine. I just hadn't heard any discussion of this and wondered what the consensus was.

Not all fen are members of the HP fandom and not all fandoms are as organized as either the HP or XF fandoms. They don't all even have major archives dedicated to that fandom.

I didn't want to assume that solutions that are used in HP fandom were going to be applied in this case (I don't even know if all the people here are part of the HP fandom).

I apparently haven't worded my question as carefully as I hoped to.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

I seem to have missed that post (I got here from a different link). I'll have to check it out.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

Which is a great idea, I was just curious about the alternatives/ideas/suggestions that were being considered.

[airawyn.livejournal.com]

I think it's something to take into consideration. This would prevent a large amount of potential legal trouble. I know it seems terribly unfair to people under 18, but fandom will still be around when they come of age.

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. And it's not like Livejournal has any system like that - most people don't even do the "hey, if you're a minor, don't read this!" thing at the top of their fic posts. (Ironically, pornish_pixies did require members to be over 18, and checked, I believe.) Every hoop you have to jump through decreases the likelihood of this being a really useful inclusive project.

[lily-liedtome.livejournal.com]

I agree with you one this - I think any more rigid form risks alienating our potential audience. I know I would probably be wary of reccing to it if any kind of login was required - honestly, for the first four years of my fannish existence I would never have even looked past the first page of a 'members only' site; it sends a very cliquish message (although that is most likely not the intent).

Also, I think it is important to keep in mind that the age of consent/majority varies all over the world, and to word any material concerning this accordingly (although if it is hosted on us servers, does that mean that all incoming traffic falls under us laws? That doesn't seem right, but internet laws are weird...)

[kerravonsen]

Personally, I'd rather restrict access to adult material than lock out underage fans! Part of the reason for wanting this archive in the first place is that we don't want poor naieve new-fen to be deceived by the blandishments of FanLib.com.

[xenacryst.livejournal.com]

So, a few bits of info here, but not much in the way of opinions...

One of the things that seems to give people pause is the "child pornography" argument. According to 18 U.S.C. § 2256 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256----000-.html) (US federal law), child pornography involves visual images. While people have certainly discussed the idea of including fan art or vids in the archive, the first focus, I believe, is text. It's been my experience that erotica story sites don't explicitly require an age statement, but they do tend to have a warning page.

There's also COPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_Online_Protection_Act) (Child Online Protection Act, not to be confused with COPPA - Child Online Privacy Protection Act). Courts seem to think that COPA is unconstitutional, and so enforcement isn't happening. However, various state laws may have similar intents. Still, on a brief read-through, I'm not sure if this covers textual material.

There's also COPPA, but that applies only to the collection of personal information about children under the age of 13, and not about whether they can access "adult" material.

And finally, just a note of observation: some libraries do actually try to keep kids in the kids sections. It really depends on the library and the community. And the librarian, kid, and parents in question, too. YMMV, of course.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

I age with you. All I was suggested was that there are only two ways I know to handle it, some sort of restricted access for fic or some sort of restricted access for membership.

Personally, I'm of the force disclaimers or logins to access adult material opinion, but I wanted to know what options the community was considering.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the information :D.

I haven't been in a library that restricted check-out (I've worked in 5), but I have been to libraries where someone might say "Does your Mother know you're checking that out?". Also, since most libraries now have videos and music, they're beginning to enforce the "if it's over g, a parent must be present to check it out" rule (obviously taking age into consideration. A 16 will probably not be confronted on the issue of checking out a PG-13 movie for example.)

[labellementeuse.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, for some reason, parents seem to think that they aren't responsible for what their children see online, the website is.

Which is kind of tragic considering that, barring requiring a credit card number to join an archive/site/whatever, websites are actually completely unable to truly restrict content. Anyone can lie in a profile, administrators don't know. Parents are the ones who have to check. (Of course you need smart parents... my father checked my history one time. I started clearing the cache after that.) I mean, smart parents just should not rely on that.

I do think that a group of "concerned parentz" could hit an archive based on the "providing pornography to minors" principle.

Yeah. That's a concern. I mean, IANAL so I don't know much about the technical defintions of pornography - I know that academically the difference between pornography and erotic fiction is generally about to what extent the work is demeaning. Unfortunately that's a degree of sensitivity I don't think anyone really applies in these situations. So.

I'm really not truly to be a big bad bully, I'm just trying to see what the consensus is and what we're considering.

Yeah, I got that from your post :) don't worry. It's a valid concern.

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

Both of which seem reasonable to me. :)

[libgirl.livejournal.com]

I wasn't trying to suggest that we make getting to fic. a process that is overly difficult or complicated. I was just curious how we were going to address the issues of age-appropriate/restricted material.

I don't want an archive that is bulky and user-unfriendly anymore than anyone else does. I was just curious.