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OTW mentioned on Zuckerman's blog and Boing Boing

OTW has been mentioned on Ethan Zuckerman's blog.

By using the word "transformative" in the organization name, the organizers of the group are advocating a legal argument - writing fan fiction based on the characters and universes of copyright-protected media is a transformative use, protected by fair use clauses in US copyright law. In other words, this is an attempt to stand up and fight for this interpretation, rather than hiding from copyright holders, which is a huge step forward to this subculture....

OTW has taken a very interesting step in declaring that fan culture has a dominant gender. In their statement of values, they note, "We value our identity as a predominantly female community with a rich history of creativity and commentary." Here, again, it's important to understand the definition of "fan culture" - media fandom, fanfic and vidding, a culture that's predominantly female, though not exclusively so.

Zuckerman's blog post has also been noted on Boing Boing.

ETA: OTW has also been mentioned on Netribution, and on the blogs of Tobias Buckell and John Scalzi. (Thanks to

droneish for the links to the last two.)

--

femmequixotic,

bethbethbeth,

ciderpress,

mirabile_dictu,

shrift,

svmadelyn
Community Relations Committee

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And Tobias Buckell's blog (http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2007/12/12/organization-for-transformative-works/) and on Scalzi's Whatever (http://scalzi.com/whatever/?p=203). :) Lots of discussion, some hostile, a fair amount friendly (see Teresa Nielsen Hayden's comment (http://www.boingboing.net/2007/12/12/organization-for-tra.html#comment-92229) on boingboing), and some just... odd. viz. OTW seems OK because it "looks like they’re not interested in slash or some of the other aspects of fan fiction". Uh, yeah, right.

Oh, thank you so much for those pointers! We'll add the two blogs to the post!

Why does everyone seem to think we want to make money off this stuff? *sighs*

i know! i was so annoyed by the boing boing comment, *not* because of the "original" argument, which I disagree with but at least comprehend but because of the asinine insinuation that there's profit involved...

Because they would want to make money. Many of them appear to be professional or aspiring professional writers.

Because they cannot imagine anyone doing a potentially money-making activity for free. They can understand "I'll do it for free until I find a buyer," but not "I'm gonna do this because I love doing it. If other people get paid for it, well, that's their right; it's not what I want to get paid for doing."

A lot of people really just can't imagine loving a hobby in a way that doesn't connect to questions of income. Especially not a hobby that *can* be lucrative if done the right way. They think that the line between "amateur" and "professional" is one of skill, not one of avocation.

From reading the John Scalzi piece (I haven't read others yet) my impression was more than he was saying that, even if some people are just arguing for being able to make "transformative" works for no money, that the legality doesn't distinguish between for profit and not for profit; either way it's still a copyright violation - or not.

Femme, it looks like your Netribution and Tobias Buckell links are going to the wrong links.

Actually, OTW was also given a small mention towards the end of Round 22 (http://www.henryjenkins.org/2007/11/gender_and_fan_culture_round_t_12.html) of the Fan Culture Debates hosted by Henry Jenkins, and was mirrored here (http://community.livejournal.com/fandebate/8378.html).

I admit to commenting on Scalzi's blog before coming over here to link, but I got so grumpy about the "they want to make it legal to make money off fanwork" that I just wanted to smack people. It's good to get the publicity even if it does lead to less than brilliant commentary....I guess.

*possibly commented on that as well*

Gaaah I let myself get dragged into discussions at Scalzi's blog. Now I'm worried that some total strangers are gonna think "who IS this wingnut?" (Okay, not exactly "worried." I'm not a BNF, but I'm also not hard to find if anyone wants to figure out "who is this person and why is she ranting at me?")

I think it's important to mention that a claim to fanfic's legality is not the same as a claim about it's marketability--that saying "this is legal" doesn't mean "this should be sellable."

Sex is legal. Doesn't mean you can sell it. (In most states.) Doesn't mean you can perform it at city hall, either.

Ask Baen Books (http://www.baen.com) about (1632) fanfic. :)

I adore Baen Books' attitude towards readers and fen. And their happy greedy acknowlegment that "the more people who read this stuff for free, the more books we sell. And the more interaction between authors and fans, the more books we sell. Wow, this open access thing sure is a cash cow."

It's a great nuisance that many authors and publishers seem to think that literary entertainment is a zero-sum game: that if readers enjoy more fanfic, they'll read less original works, or if they get some books for free, they'll refuse to buy that many books next year, or something like that.

As if we allocated ourselves 500,000 words per year to read, and eight books per year to buy, and when we hit the limit, we stop.

I don't know how you maintained your cool with commenters like Ed Bartlett on that thread. I found his comparison of fanfic to a "quilting bee" sexist and condescending. But the remark that annoyed me the most was this:

Therein lies the difference between an homage and fanfic, legalities aside. One honors the source, the other doesn’t.

With that, he demonstrates quite clearly just how little he knows about fanfic and fan writers.

I'm rather enjoying the back-and-forth with him; I rarely get the openings to explain Why Fanfic Is A Good Thing in neat, succinct posts.

I decided to take the tack "not all homages have a 1:1 comparative value," rather than "but parody is legal, and acknowledged as valid commentary on a piece... do you mean that mockery is an appropriate response, along with direct imitation, but other reactions are not?"

I didn't mind the "quilting bee" comparison--I've been to quilting bees. I have no problem comparing fanfic to "women's sewing circles." And anyone who's ever had to rely on those circles for their clothing and linens wouldn't mock them, nor disdain the art & creativity that come out of them.

He's also woefully uninformed about fanfic in general; he seems to think it's an internet-inspired thing, instead of a practice with several hundred years of history, which has only been problematic in the last 50 or so: when TV and telephones combined to give thousands of people quick communication about their favorite topics, and photocopiers gave them cheap ways to distribute their fanworks.

Thanks for the links. I just spent over an hour reading all the *cough* discussion *cough*. Heh. Well.

Some of it made me angry and some of it made me sad, but all in all? I'm glad people are talking about it.

Maybe I'm just so completely invested in fandom, but the arguments against fanfiction are so weird to me. Have I been brainwashed? I guess I don't mind too much. I like hanging out with my friends and fandom has given me so many gifts.

The arguments against fanfic have several roots:

1) Fanfiction is "just practice"--it's writing exercises by people who don't have the full set of literary skills to be pros. Therefore, like any rough draft, it shouldn't be public; the public has a right not to have eyesores inflicted on them.

This concept acknowledges fanfic as a literary process, but insists that its only legitimate purpose is as a learning exercise; anyone who wants to stick with it long-term (as a writer or reader) is showing a lack of taste that decent people need not support.

2) Fanfiction is "immoral"--writers made their creations; they get to decide how they are used. Arguments of this sort crash hard against modern re-tellings of Shakespeare and bible stories. A common followup is "writers who are still living get to decide...", as if the lack of a writer's direct voice changes the morality of the fanfic.

3) Fanfiction is "theft"--fanfic takes away money the author could be making. This argument has several variations, all of which collapse when faced with economic realities. There may be authors who've lost money because of fanfic, but that'd be hard to prove... while the number of books & tv shows with better sales numbers *and* incredibly high fanfic numbers is easy to prove.

----
Most of the anti-fanfic arguments seem to have a foundation in the idea that "copyright protection" is intended to allow authors' control over their works, rather than intended to foster creativity in society at large by way of allowing some autorial control.

But saying it that way squicks a lot of people. Even fans. It's hard to take a public stance for "Anyone can play with my ideas, even in ways I find deeply disturbing."

Yeah, I do understand where the arguments come from, but they seem so silly and narrow to me. I think I'm so far on the other side (fandom in general) now that I can't make sense of what they are saying.

I'll never forget when I first discovered fandom and fanfic. It was like a revelation. There were all these people out there who liked what I liked and took the time to discuss it and write about it and it just blew my mind. I jumped in with both feet and haven't looked back. I've made some wonderful friends and had some really happy times here, I wouldn't give it up for anything.

::beats head against the wall::

I think I need a drink.

Pour me a double.

At least they're not talking about saving the children from Teh Eebil Pr0n.

At least they're not talking about saving the children from Teh Eebil Pr0n.

And the rape analogy was only brought up once yet.

I'm just lurking and still I feel like my brain is shrinking in quiet desperation. Why do I keep reading that thread?

I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible to convince people like that Tor guy that ficcers aren't in it for the money, because the concept of writing for fun is a totally alien one to them.

You're not trying to convince them. You write to the lurkers--to the people who are curious about fanfic and the issues involved, and want to figure out why people do it and whether or not it's legal and so on.

You write *in counterpoint to* the people who've already made up their minds, but you're not writing *for* them.

If nothing else, you hope to convince the lurkers that it's a big complicated issue with a lot of aspects to consider, so they won't be so quick to accept it when some Famous Author says "fanfic is theft of my hard work, and that's the end of it."

You write *in counterpoint to* the people who've already made up their minds, but you're not writing *for* them.

Ah, man, that's brilliant. (I'm serious.)

I keep thinking that the entire thing is pointless because those IDIOTS don't want to understand or have an open mind--okay, the name-calling is frustration talking, and I don't really mean it. But people like Tor, An Eric, Ed? We're never going to see eye to eye.

But writing for the lurkers--not to mention us? I've learned so much during this debate. *g*

Once in a while, you can actually reach them, get them to understand your points, if not agree. And some of them are actually trying to understand, but can't get around the catch-phrases they're used to.

Like the concept, "an author should get to control what happens to her characters! Obviously!"--you have to gently lead into the idea that they can't stop parodies, and those can be vicious, and they can't stop selective quoting and biased analysis that might lead people to boycott the book--so what they're fighting for is the right to prevent certain types of manipulation of the characters.

And so on. It gets complicated pretty fast. And some of them, you never will convince of anything... but it really does help to think of it as writing for a sympathetic audience who's honestly confused or undecided.

Like a trial--the lawyer asks the questions, but it's the jury that needs to be convinced.

You write to the lurkers

That makes sense! And it makes the whole discussion seem a lot less frustrating if you look at it this way.

All wanky debates are easier to cope with if you tell yourself you're not writing to the person you're responding to, but to someone coming along later to read it. Write for the <lj comm="metafandom" readers, not the clueless jerk who's insulting you.

Well, that's what having the rest of December off is for, right? :)

I apologize for commenting anonymously, but it is quite cumbersome going on this site with a blackberry. Just refer to me as Concerned One, if you want to refer to me by a name.

It seems that most people who have not seen fanfiction before deeply misunderstand fanfiction and yet it is not easily articulable why they misunderstand it. This may have already been mentioned before, bit I want to mention it just in case it has not yet been mentioned:

1. In response to the idea that fanfiction is not original enough, the faultiness with that objection is that the purpose of fanfiction is not to create original things to make great things; fanfiction is not about being great. Rather, it is a social activity where people share personal ideas on things. The primary value of fanfiction is not of creating great works, but rather sharing personal thoughts with a community.
2. In response to the idea that fanfiction is leeching off the popularity of another person's works, the fact is that when one writes fanfiction, one is not writing it for the sake of one's own self, but rather for the sake of the community in which one is participating; it is for the good of their community, which some call fandom. This is the reason fanfiction writers want reviews from each and every single reader, in that the purpose of fanfiction is merely to be read, because fanfiction is essentially a way to talk to others; if others would not talk back, then most would not want to continue to write. In addition, most reviews I have seen are not critical evaluations of the value of the work, but rather personal comments on the work, and telling that they want the author to continue to write, indicating that it is a way to speak of personal things, and that they write because they want to contribute to and satisfy those who want to read it.

Rather, it is a social activity where people share personal ideas on things.

It's been mentioned (on my IJ) that fanfic is not only social--that many people do this as a solitary activity for years before finding anyone else who does it, and that many fanficcers have no interest in the "social" aspects--they want to exchange stories, perhaps, but not to read commentary or discuss them.

The claim that "fanfic is a social activity" needs more careful explanation, because from some perspectives, it's not true.

Hi,

elfwreck - here from

metafandom.

My personal experience has been that for me, sometimes the social aspects of fanfic writing have been hard to deal with. Sometimes what I have written isn't really what "the fans" want (I don't usually follow the OTPs, for instance.) Sometimes I put a spin on things that's important to me, but not necessarily comfortable for my readers. (FWIW, I have always encouraged readers who don't see eye-to-eye with me on everything.) Sometimes I've spent more energy dealing with negative reviews, when I should have been writing. And sometimes I feel like I've been too dependent on the social aspects (i.e. asking myself pitilessly what my motives are.)

But what *is* delightful about fandom is when I've gotten an idea that just burns a hole in me; I write a story about it, and someone says, "You too? You thought that too?" And you've not just expressed yourself, but linked up with another person who shares that vision with you. It's exhiliarating.

So I think it's a complicated issue, one that can't just be divided into social/non-social aspects.

I would like to add that there are writers who never (or almost) read other writer's works. So, even if it exist, the social aspect can be rather narrow.

Ela

I agree with

elfwreck. According to my experiences, what you write isn't universally true.

I know that there are lots and lots of fanfics that aren't great works and which aren't meant to be. However, I know also that there are writers who, in the literary sense of the idiom, try to achieve something praise worthy and are always trying to reach higher. Still, they're writing fanfiction, and they're proud of their work.

Sharing personal thoughts with a community as the primary value of fanfiction? I can't agree. If that were the primary value, why would so many writers and readers get frustrated when their personal thoughts are not tolerated by the people in the community? The phenomenon of OTP is the most prominent example. I would rather say that the primary value of fanfiction is to reach the majority conclusion about issues related to the fandom of the community.

One isn't writing fanfics for oneself? Once again I don't agree with you. There are writers who are great contributors for their community, that's true. But, according to my experiences, also those writers are writing for themselves. I don't know one writer who writes fanfiction for any other reason but that first and foremost they feel the need to write. Only then comes the social aspect of the fanfiction. If it comes.

I guess that by fanfiction most people mean what by that title can be found in the internet. Thereby, I can accept your thought that "the purpose of fanfiction is merely to be read". However, that definition isn't the one I think is valid. It doesn't apply to those fannish works that people write but with which they never go public. Just because the stories aren't public, are they not fanfiction?

Since we, the writers and the readers of fanfiction, aren't capable of reaching an agreement of with exactly what we are involved, I don't think it's too difficult to understand why the people outside of the fannish activities have no clue.

Ela

This is "Concerned One," again.
You have a good point there. I'll have to re-think this:

Indeed, it is not about all about participating in any community at all. I get the impression that it's all about the fact that one thinks that the work itself has value or is satisfying in some way - that it may not be directly for one's own self, but rather, for what one thinks is valuable. What would matter most then is that it is about the work itself, (de-emphasizing the author, and more emphasizing the work itself).

Here's another blog mention.

The discussions in the blogs, especially Scalzi's, have been fascinated (and to those of you have been arguing in favor of fandom: go you! I'm impressed). Unfortunatly, my one contribution will be this: someone on the thread said that "I once read an incredibly disturbing fic where Superman takes over the world, and Lex is the leader of the underground rebellion."

Who wrote this fic? Where can I find it? 'Cause I want to read it!

Seperis!!! A Handful of Dust!!!! *g*

http://seperis.illuminatedtext.com/smallville/handfulofdust1.html

(If there's another story with this premise? I want to know, too!)

Yay! Thanks a lot.

I love fic that invert the entire point of the original work. IT MAKES ME THINK, OH NOES. :)

I *know* that I have seen this addressed elsewhere, but since I can't find it, I can't point anyone to it.

So, I'm sorry to make you repeat yourselves, but could you just clarify what the membership fee is, and that nobody will be charged to use the archive or any other OTW service?

Thanks!

We've realized that the FAQ on the website isn't clear on this subject, and we plan to address that. Thank you for bringing it to our attention!

No donation will ever be required to use the archive or any of its tools, and the archive will be free of advertising.

The minimum annual donation for membership in the OTW is $10. Members of the OTW will have voting rights to vote for the Board of Directors as they come up for election. OTW members may also run for the Board of Directors.

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OTW mentioned on Zuckerman's blog and Boing Boing

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On the purpose of fanfiction

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