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otw_news2007-12-28 02:32 pm
bethbethbeth.livejournal.com) wrote in otw_news2007-12-28 02:32 pm
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OTW Chat Transcript
Last night, Thursday, December 27th was our first OTW Group Chat. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did and that you found it informative, but for those of you who weren't able to attend, the chat transcript is below the cut.
Chat Transcript
Session Start: Thu Dec 27 22:02:51 2007
Session Ident: #otw
* Now talking in #otw
* Topic is 'Note: this channel is moderated. Please msg a mod (someone with an @ sign) for a turn to speak. If you
are hanging out before a chat, you can /join #otw-chat (the unofficial chat channel) to chat with others.'
* Set by naomi-not-really-here-yet on Thu Dec 27 21:14:47
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Mira
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* beth_h is on IRC
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o Madelyn
* femme_herebutnot is now known as femme_ComRel
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* ChanServ sets mode: +o beth_h
* naomi-Board is now known as Naomi_Board-ADT
* elyn is on IRC
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* Joins: dd
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* dd is now known as dd--volunteers
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* Madelyn is now known as Madelyn_ComRel
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* beth_h is now known as Beth_ComRel
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{ Madelyn_ComRel} Heya, everyone!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} We're not going to get started for a few more minutes so everyone can get settled in. *g*
* Joins: Canary
{ Madelyn_ComRel} But it was unnerving to me that a chat room was...you know, silent. I'll be going through the list
on LJ to see who's first up on questions and all.
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* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +o Naomi_Board-ADT
* ChanServ sets mode: -o Naomi_Board-ADT
* Naomi_Board-ADT is now known as Naomi_Boad
* Naomi_Boad is now known as Naomi_Board
* femme_ComRel sets mode: +v Naomi_Board
* Joins: gnatkip
{ Naomi_Board} just to explain the technical side of things, this room is set up so that OTW community relations
members are opped (they have the @ sign next to their names)
{ Naomi_Board} and the rest of us, whether OTW members or not, can only talk when we have the + sign next to our
names
{ Naomi_Board} which the Community Relations people will give us as it is our turn to talk :)
* Joins: soo
{ femme_ComRel} Do we have any Mac people here using Colloquy?
* Joins: Lottelita
{ femme_ComRel} If so, instead of seeing the @ sign, you'll see our icons as orange and black, and the + sign will show up as blue and black.
{ femme_ComRel} (Just so someone doesn't wonder why there's no @ or +. *g*
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v drone
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Hi, drone! I think you're first up on our questions list
{ Madelyn_ComRel} so...welcome to the chat everyone, and I think we're ready to get on our way here.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Please IM any of the ComRel people if something comes up where you want to talk. *g*
* Logging #otw to 'D:\My Documents\fandom\fanarchive\ComRel\chatlogs\#otw.20071227.log'
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And...I think that means the floor is yours now, drone.
{ drone} oh wow, OK. I just wondered what the deal was with hearing back from ComRel on our volunteer apps. How long should it take?
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v dd--volunteers
{ femme_ComRel} I think that's a question for DD, our Volunteers coordinator. :)
{ dd--volunteers} People should receive outcome emails within a few days of the job being filled, but we don't have the same hard and fast 48 hour deadline as we do for acknowledgment of volunteering emails--
{ dd--volunteers} and in a case where the two overlap, ack emails take precedence, because they follow a set, publicly posted deadline. At this time, though, we do have several jobs we are waiting for word on--the committee in question has not yet chosen a volunteer, or informed us who it is.
{ dd--volunteers} done, unless there is follow up
{ drone} but we will hear even if our services aren't needed?
{ dd--volunteers} yes, you should
{ drone} great. :)
{ dd--volunteers} if you think you should have and have not, email volunteers and we'll check
{ drone} and while I'm at it, one more quick thing
* Quits: Canary (Connection reset by peer)
{ drone} The ack email I got didn't say it had anything to do with OTW and thus almost got junked. Might want to change that. ;)
* Cesca is on IRC
{ dd--volunteers} okay, good point. please email me at the volunteers address so we can discuss what your email looked like and make appropriate changes
{ drone} sure np. :)
{ Naomi_Board} I'll add that right now with the holidays a lot of committee members are away/busy and so it's been hard for committees to meet, which may be why some answers haven't come
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* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v Paraka
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Allrighty, next up is Paraka!
* Joins: Ces_Board
{ Paraka} I had a question about the legal side of things. When I first heard about the OTW, they were just going to have a legal defense fund,
{ Paraka} but now the webpage says they're taking a proactive stance
{ Paraka} what exactly does a proactive stance mean?
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v drone
{ Naomi_Board} I'll take that one
{ Naomi_Board} proactive in this case just means that we are not waiting until someone sues us to start thinking about what we'll do if someone does
{ Naomi_Board} we're not going to be looking for a lawsuit
{ Paraka} Ok, but you're not about so start taking others to court over this?
{ Naomi_Board} no, no
{ Paraka} oh good
{ Naomi_Board} we are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst
{ Naomi_Board} and we want to have a lot of scary impressive names in our corner
{ Naomi_Board} like the EFF and Stanford Fair Use
{ Paraka} That's what I thought, but I know there are quite a few out there who don't.
* Quits: Canary (Connection reset by peer)
* Joins: empink
* Joins: Canary
{ Paraka} That's basically all I wanted to ask :)
{ Naomi_Board} :D
{ Madelyn_ComRel} (Side note for everyone - if at any time you want to add something to the discussion, or get on the questions list, ping someone on ComRel and we'll get you on the list!)
* Joins: wedes
{ femme_ComRel} Okay, lottelita is up next...if you need to message us, you can type /msg and one of our names and we'll answer back. :)
* femme_ComRel sets mode: +v Lottelita
{ Lottelita} Hi! My question, shockingly, is also on the legal side of things.
{ Naomi_Board} and if you are having trouble, you can go to our Campfire web chatroom and someone will help you out
{ Naomi_Board} https://fanarchive.campfirenow.com/f39ad
{ Naomi_Board} (sorry for interrupting, go ahead)
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: -v Paraka
{ Lottelita} first, i want to applaud you guys for having a big-tent approach to fannish work. it seems like it would be easy to say, "we're here for fic because we think we can win with fic, but the vidders are on their own," etc.
* Mira is now known as Mira_ComRel
{ Lottelita} however, RPS in particular seems to have its own set of legal issues, yet i've only seen comment so far on the fanfic/fanvid side of things.
{ Lottelita} are you guys working on specific messages/defenses for RPS/RPF?
{ Naomi_Board} I will start by saying that probably we will set up a chat with Rebecca Tushnet, our head of Legal, who can give the really correct answers to all the legal questions
{ Lottelita} well, from a CommRel perspective, as well.
{ Naomi_Board} not being a lawyer, I will say that my understanding from our discussions is that RPS/RPF are on much more solid and understood ground
{ Naomi_Board} legally speaking
{ Lottelita} with respect to libel?
{ Naomi_Board} we definitely *are* concerned about them
{ Naomi_Board} in terms of caring about RPS and RPF
{ Naomi_Board} and wanting to protect them too
* Joins: RDphantom
{ Naomi_Board} libel/defamation/slander you are totally safe as long as it is clear the work is fiction
{ Naomi_Board} in my nonlawyer understanding!
{ Lottelita} right.
{ Naomi_Board} are there other legal aspects for RPF that you are specifically concerned about?
{ Lottelita} since RPF pushes a good number of people's squick buttons pretty hard, is OTW going to work on a "message" about why it's legit?
* Jae-afk is now known as Jae
{ Lottelita} and why it's included?
{ Naomi_Board} let me actually answer this more generally -- we are not looking to judge squick/squee, period. that is, we have zero desire as an org to get into the business of deciding what is "worthy" or "good" and don't think it is our place
{ Naomi_Board} we're going to include everything that our legal team tells us we can that does not risk getting us sent to jail :}
{ Lottelita} ha ha, awesome. thanks.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} (Anything else, Lottelita?)
{ Lottelita} not at the moment!
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v AnarchicQ
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v Lottelita
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Next up, AnarchicQ!
{ AnarchicQ} Ok, I was wondering about your Advocacy. Are you going to approch places like LJ and Fanlib, and are you going to advocate for policy changes or changes of TOSses to make them more Fandom friendly?
{ AnarchicQ} By them I mean LJ. sorry^^;
{ Naomi_Board} that's an interesting thought, and not something that we have discussed
{ AnarchicQ} But..you're an advocacy group, right?
{ Naomi_Board} my gut reaction is that our first and most important step is to provide a safe fandom-friendly place for fans to put their stuff, and defend that safe place
{ Naomi_Board} the idea being
{ Naomi_Board} if the Archive of our own is out there
{ AnarchicQ} But until then?
{ Naomi_Board} and you can put your stuff there, then it becomes less important what LJ's policies are towards fan works, because if LJ (or myspace or facebook, or the next hot site) abruptly change their policies as we have seen they are wont to do, then it doesn't have to mean the same kind of impact
{ Naomi_Board} we're hoping to have the archive open by this summer
* Quits: empink (QUIT: CGI:IRC)
* Joins: empink
{ AnarchicQ} Ok. I warn you the more we talk the more questions I get, so please bare with me?
{ Naomi_Board} realistically, I don't think we are going to have the muscle to get LJ or another major site to change their TOS before then
{ AnarchicQ} True.
* Naomi_Board doesn't mind! :D comrel may need to give someone else a turn, but they can cut in when that is the case
{ AnarchicQ} ok
{ AnarchicQ} How are you defining Fandom?
{ AnarchicQ} The term.
* Parts: wedes
{ Naomi_Board} I'm not sure I entirely get the question, AnarchicQ -- do you mean, what do I mean by "fandom" as in "fandom-friendly" in the answer I gave up above?
{ Naomi_Board} I know it can be confusing, because in conversation we all tend to use it in a bunch of ways and rely on the context
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* Quits: empink (QUIT: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout))
* empink_ is now known as empink
{ AnarchicQ} Well, For instance, you said that schollar guy who's name escapes me, is not in fandom. Even though he writes fanfiction, apparently.
{ Naomi_Board} the basic term is of course, "a collection of fans" but we aren't hoping to defend all fans of anything doing anything
{ Naomi_Board} hmm
{ Naomi_Board} okay, I am being told by little birds that it wasn't us who said that -- are you referring to Henry Jenkins?
{ AnarchicQ} Yes, That guy.
{ Naomi_Board} right -- have someone looking up the URL so we can confirm
{ Naomi_Board} but basically, to answer the question more broadly
{ Naomi_Board} we're not really looking to define fandom or to say who is in or out of it
{ Naomi_Board} we figure, that's up to each person how they define themselves
{ AnarchicQ} It might have been someone else in one of the sweeping threds of comments.
{ Naomi_Board} we're going to make a home for fan works
{ Naomi_Board} and anyone who makes fan works and wants to put them there is going to be welcome
{ Naomi_Board} and by fan works I mean fanfic, fanvids, podfic, fanart, the stuff that we all know and love
{ Naomi_Board} we're not going to be checking at the door to see if someone's got fan cred *g*
{ AnarchicQ} There, that's an answer! Right. One more question, then You can go to someone else, but I have more after this.
{ Naomi_Board} aha, and I have the url: http://community.livejournal.com/life_wo_fanlib/45514.html?thread=824010#t824010
{ Naomi_Board} is this what you were referring to, AnarchicQ?
{ AnarchicQ} Yes. Thank you.
{ Naomi_Board} AnarchicQ, comrel is telling me they have a long line, and time is short
{ Naomi_Board} so if you don't mind I'll ask you to wait for another turn, and if we don't get to you again, we'll be having more or we can get you answers in the comm :D
{ AnarchicQ} Ok. So I'm done then?
{ AnarchicQ} Ok, no worries.
{ Naomi_Board} thanks! sorry to have to cut short
{ AnarchicQ} S'cool.
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v bookjunkie
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And next up is...I think, bookjunkie!
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v AnarchicQ
{ bookjunkie} How do you plan on dealing with copyright owners who say that fanfic violates their copyright?
{ bookjunkie} Is the archive to be on or offline?
{ Naomi_Board} the archive will be online
{ Naomi_Board} as for how we deal with them, we respectfully disagree
{ bookjunkie} what will you do when they bring suit against you?
{ Naomi_Board} if someone sends us a DMCA takedown notice, then we'll deal with it on a case by case basis
* Basily has left IRC
{ bookjunkie} who do I talk to about the otw news group?
{ Naomi_Board} --wait, sorry, still answering this question
* Joins: seperis
{ Naomi_Board} sorry, I tend to break up my answers -- I will type out the whole thing in this case though
{ bookjunkie} np
{ Naomi_Board} but this is important so I want to be clear
{ Naomi_Board} in an ideal universe, we would never comply with a DMCA takedown notice against a work of fanfic at all. sadly we do not live in an ideal universe, and so when and if we ever get one, a whole lot of practical issues will then arise. this will include stuff like, how much money we have on hand and how much we can raise for a defense -- which of our legal partners is willing to help us and work with us -- what our legal team thinks about the facts of the case -- what the individual fan whose work the takedown notice is being lodged against thinks.
{ Naomi_Board} and such other issues
{ Naomi_Board} what we can say is that we are not going to be saying "oh hey, DMCA takedown from some person! yank that!"
{ Naomi_Board} and leaving it all in the fan's lap to figure out what to do, what it all means, what is going on
{ Naomi_Board} and the best way to respond
{ Naomi_Board} oh, sorry
* Naomi_Board facepalms
{ Naomi_Board} I've just been told that cut off for some people
* Naomi_Board reposts it in smaller chunks
{ Naomi_Board} (this is why I tend to break up my answers *g*)
{ Naomi_Board} in an ideal universe, we would never comply with a DMCA takedown notice against a work of fanfic at all.
{ Naomi_Board} sadly we do not live in an ideal universe, and so when and if we ever get one, a whole lot of practical issues will then arise.
{ Naomi_Board} this will include stuff like:
{ Naomi_Board} -- how much money we have on hand and how much we can raise for a defense
{ Naomi_Board} -- which of our legal partners is willing to help us and work with us
{ Naomi_Board} -- what our legal team thinks about the facts of the case
{ Naomi_Board} -- what the individual fan whose work the takedown notice is being lodged against thinks
{ Naomi_Board} and others
{ Naomi_Board} we are not going to be looking for a lawsuit, as I said before
{ Naomi_Board} lawsuits really suck *g*
{ bookjunkie} I meant if a lawsuit found you.
{ Naomi_Board} and we're hoping that with education and by establishing a series of best practices to show copyright holders that they have nothing to fear from fanfiction
{ Naomi_Board} so that's the long answer to those two questions
{ bookjunkie} ok
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Bookjunkie, did you have anything else?
{ bookjunkie} yes
{ bookjunkie} technical. I'm a member of/friend of otw news and I haven't received any mail about OTW since the initial announcement by Naomi. Who do I talk to about this?
{ femme_ComRel} What sort of mail, bookjunkie?
* Joins: ScrewTheDaisies
{ bookjunkie} umm aparently there were notices of volunteer positions and other things.
* Joins: Hector_Rashbaum
{ Naomi_Board} if you have it friended, you should be seeing regular posts on your flist -- if you would rather be getting news by email there is also a Yahoogroup, or you can use Livejournal's thumbtack tool to get emailed every time someone posts
{ bookjunkie} what's the name of the yahoo group?
{ femme_ComRel} If you'd like to email us at comrel@transformativeworks.org, we can figure out what's going on.
{ Beth_ComRel} http://groups.yahoo.com/group/otw_news/
{ Beth_ComRel} That's the yahoo group, bookjunkie
{ bookjunkie} tyk. that is all for me tonight.
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v RDphantom
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Next up, RDphantom!
{ RDphantom} Hi everyone! I?m really interested in how far along the archive is in being built. All the various functions sound really exciting and I can?t wait to try everything out. How close are you to getting it all coded and operational?
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v bookjunkie
{ Naomi_Board} I'll take that with the ADT (Editorial Note: ADT - Accessibility, Design, & Technology) hat on *g*
{ Naomi_Board} the archive coding and testing are both going to be starting full-steam ahead starting in January
* Quits: Hector_Rashbaum (Connection Closed)
{ Naomi_Board} as some of you may know, I've built archive software before (the AutomatedArchive software)
{ Naomi_Board} and basically, it is not that hard a software thing to build
{ Naomi_Board} but what *is* hard is building it in such a way that it is really solid and can stand up to hundreds of thousands of users and stories
{ Naomi_Board} and a thousand people posting all at once
{ Naomi_Board} which, um, anyone following Yuletide will know the existing AutomatedArchive software sadly does not
{ Naomi_Board} so what we've been working on these past few months is the foundations -- deciding what tools we are going to use, setting up a solid testing framework
{ Naomi_Board} and then we used these tools to create a prototype application
{ Naomi_Board} which we'll be opening up shortly which is actually a database for our Volunteers team
{ Naomi_Board} but which has a lot of the same code that we will ahve to write for the archive -- stuff like the basic, logging in, putting in your bio and profile, searching, sorting, etc
{ Naomi_Board} so that we have gotten a lot of the mistakes out of the way *before* we start actually creating the archive code
{ Naomi_Board} starting in January we are going to be recruiting coders and testers for the building, in all of our various channels
{ Naomi_Board} does that answer, rdphantom?
* Joins: labellementeuse
{ RDphantom} I like that you are making it as solid as possible. So do you think you will be able to inlude all the features people want? It sounded like it could get pretty complicated.
* Joins: technosage-reads
{ Naomi_Board} we've broken up the design into manageable chunks, we think, and narrowed down to a set of features that we think we can get up and running for version 1.0 of the archive software
{ Naomi_Board} one of our goals in taking our time like this
{ Naomi_Board} is to make sure that the software is also easy to improve and expand as time goes on
{ Naomi_Board} so probaly we *won't* have everyone's dream features right off the bat, but will have a reasonably easy time of adding new ones
{ Naomi_Board} and one of our goals in building this with a team --
{ Naomi_Board} because this is in fact feasible as a one-person job --
{ Naomi_Board} is to make sure that there are a lot of people who *can* add features
{ Naomi_Board} and who are familiar with the software from the ground up
{ RDphantom} I'm glad that you are doing this the right way, but it's hard to wait!
* Naomi_Board grins wryly and also um, has trouble being patient
{ Madelyn_ComRel} *grins* RDphantom, anything else?
{ RDphantom} good to know I'm not the only one! another question
{ RDphantom} To go back to before, How do you plan to establish a series of best practices with regards to legal trouble?
{ Naomi_Board} that I think we will have to save for our legal team to answer!
{ RDphantom} Oh, ok.
{ Naomi_Board} but hang on --
{ Naomi_Board} I can show you something we're taking as inspiration and a model
* technosage-reads is now known as technosagery
{ RDphantom} great
{ Naomi_Board} some of you may not know about this: documentary filmmakers have been getting killed by copyright issues
{ Naomi_Board} if they were filming on the street and a truck with the Coke logo drove by
{ Naomi_Board} for five seconds
{ Naomi_Board} they were being forced to get permission from Coca Cola
{ Naomi_Board} before they were given insurance
{ Naomi_Board} without which they couldn't distribute the film
* Quits: labellementeuse (Connection reset by peer)
{ Naomi_Board} http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/statement_of_best_practices_in_fair_use/
{ RDphantom} the url won't link for me
{ Naomi_Board} so stanford fair use foundation helped them put together a statement of fair use practices
{ Naomi_Board} and the EFF has put together this (I'll get a tinyurl for it in a sec, RDP): http://www.eff.org/issues/ip-and-free-speech/fair-use-principles-usergen
{ Naomi_Board} http://tinyurl.com/y3zbhm
{ Naomi_Board} that is for the first one, RDphantom, if that works
{ Naomi_Board} but anyway, that is the kind of thing that we are looking to put together for us
{ RDphantom} trying to make the url work,
{ Naomi_Board} I am afraid we are past time, so maybe let us move on, and RD, if you have more questions, we will have follow-up chats
{ RDphantom} ok, cool. I'll check it out. Thanks everyone!
{ Naomi_Board} thanks! :D
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Yep, Naomi had a question from someone who had to leave the chat early. A couple of the people who asked questions had more follow-ups, but we're a bit out of time for that.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} So I think just the one from our guest who had to leave, and then we'll be wrapping this one up!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} { JaneCarnall} My question was only going to be why the OTW crew think it's advantageous to prevent communities forming on other journals besides Six Apart/SUPs.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} was the question.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} We had a couple different interpretations of that one so I think we'll answer--both.
{ femme_ComRel} I'll jump in here. :)
{ femme_ComRel} I can assure you after all I've had to go through with SixApart this year, I'm not one of their big fans. *G*
{ femme_ComRel} So we encourage off-LJ discussion and comment, definitely.
* Joins: labellementeuse
{ femme_ComRel} However, when it comes to trying to corral the discussion so that Community Relations and other OTW members can track it and make sure concerns and questions are answered, we chose to keep the discussion on our end centralized for now.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} It's just that - there's only so many hours in the day, and we simply can't follow every conversation on multiple journals. And some of the questions would actually be asked multiple places, and we just really want to minimize confusion for *everyone*.
{ femme_ComRel} Exactly, yes.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} But we absolutely allow for anon comments that are signed and we *want* communication from everyone.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And if you feel...you know, dirty commenting on LJ? We understand that too. But we're quietly usurping in a way! Think of it like that. *coughing*
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Now, we weren't really sure if that was the actual *question*, so the other version of it
{ femme_ComRel} We also have Open ID commenting enabled on LJ so that anyone can use their IJ login, for example, to participate in discussions.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} *nods* Exactly, yes.
* Quits: emily_shore (QUIT: )
{ Madelyn_ComRel} but the other version of that question that we thought she might be asking is if we don't support other efforts of people trying to put together outlets/blog systems outside of LJ
{ Naomi_Board} and I can answer that one
{ Naomi_Board} which is we totally are all for it
{ Naomi_Board} we feel that by building the open-source archive software and then putting together a central archive owned by an organization and not an individual
{ Naomi_Board} we'll be providing a piece that will be useful whether you want to stay on LJ or move to another service or start something totally new
{ Naomi_Board} we don't at all want to be the only ones working in this space, creating more fan-friendly sites and tools
{ Naomi_Board} we need more!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And for those of us who have recs blogs, less anguish over disappearing sites if people use all this! *coughs wildly*
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v RDphantom
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Okay, wow! We're at an hour and a half already.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And with that, I think we're going to close up shop! We'd like to thank you all *so* much for coming. We'll be posting a transcript of this chat for everyone, and we'd appreciate any feedback you have about the way this chat was run on that post. So, you know - ponder how you liked this format, how you felt in here, all that good stuff.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Thank you especially to all those with questions - we'll be having plenty more of these, so if you didn't get a chance tonight
{ Madelyn_ComRel} we'll so be around for more.
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v dd--volunteers
* femme_ComRel sets mode: -v Naomi_Board
* Parts: soo
Session Close: Thu Dec 27 23:34:08 2007
Note: this transcript is exactly as it appears on the log with the following three exceptions:
1. The angled brackets around speakers' names have been changed because the html coding was making the names disappear
2. Font size for irc notifications of people joining and leaving the chat has been decreased to make the actual conversation stand out a bit more
3. One editorial note has been inserted to define "ADT"
"mode +v" followed by a nickname means that somebody's been given "voice" privileges so they can ask questions.
"mode -v" is used after the individual has asked all their questions and follow-ups.
Please let us know how the chat format worked for you in the comments below. Our next chat will take place on January 3rd, starting at 8:00 p.m. GMT (9:00 Central Europe Time).
--![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
femmequixotic, bethbethbeth, ciderpress, mirabile_dictu, shrift, svmadelyn
Community Relations Committee
Chat Transcript
Session Start: Thu Dec 27 22:02:51 2007
Session Ident: #otw
* Now talking in #otw
* Topic is 'Note: this channel is moderated. Please msg a mod (someone with an @ sign) for a turn to speak. If you
are hanging out before a chat, you can /join #otw-chat (the unofficial chat channel) to chat with others.'
* Set by naomi-not-really-here-yet on Thu Dec 27 21:14:47
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{ Madelyn_ComRel} Heya, everyone!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} We're not going to get started for a few more minutes so everyone can get settled in. *g*
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{ Madelyn_ComRel} But it was unnerving to me that a chat room was...you know, silent. I'll be going through the list
on LJ to see who's first up on questions and all.
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{ Naomi_Board} just to explain the technical side of things, this room is set up so that OTW community relations
members are opped (they have the @ sign next to their names)
{ Naomi_Board} and the rest of us, whether OTW members or not, can only talk when we have the + sign next to our
names
{ Naomi_Board} which the Community Relations people will give us as it is our turn to talk :)
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{ femme_ComRel} Do we have any Mac people here using Colloquy?
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{ femme_ComRel} If so, instead of seeing the @ sign, you'll see our icons as orange and black, and the + sign will show up as blue and black.
{ femme_ComRel} (Just so someone doesn't wonder why there's no @ or +. *g*
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v drone
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Hi, drone! I think you're first up on our questions list
{ Madelyn_ComRel} so...welcome to the chat everyone, and I think we're ready to get on our way here.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Please IM any of the ComRel people if something comes up where you want to talk. *g*
* Logging #otw to 'D:\My Documents\fandom\fanarchive\ComRel\chatlogs\#otw.20071227.log'
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And...I think that means the floor is yours now, drone.
{ drone} oh wow, OK. I just wondered what the deal was with hearing back from ComRel on our volunteer apps. How long should it take?
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v dd--volunteers
{ femme_ComRel} I think that's a question for DD, our Volunteers coordinator. :)
{ dd--volunteers} People should receive outcome emails within a few days of the job being filled, but we don't have the same hard and fast 48 hour deadline as we do for acknowledgment of volunteering emails--
{ dd--volunteers} and in a case where the two overlap, ack emails take precedence, because they follow a set, publicly posted deadline. At this time, though, we do have several jobs we are waiting for word on--the committee in question has not yet chosen a volunteer, or informed us who it is.
{ dd--volunteers} done, unless there is follow up
{ drone} but we will hear even if our services aren't needed?
{ dd--volunteers} yes, you should
{ drone} great. :)
{ dd--volunteers} if you think you should have and have not, email volunteers and we'll check
{ drone} and while I'm at it, one more quick thing
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{ drone} The ack email I got didn't say it had anything to do with OTW and thus almost got junked. Might want to change that. ;)
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{ dd--volunteers} okay, good point. please email me at the volunteers address so we can discuss what your email looked like and make appropriate changes
{ drone} sure np. :)
{ Naomi_Board} I'll add that right now with the holidays a lot of committee members are away/busy and so it's been hard for committees to meet, which may be why some answers haven't come
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* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v Paraka
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Allrighty, next up is Paraka!
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{ Paraka} I had a question about the legal side of things. When I first heard about the OTW, they were just going to have a legal defense fund,
{ Paraka} but now the webpage says they're taking a proactive stance
{ Paraka} what exactly does a proactive stance mean?
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v drone
{ Naomi_Board} I'll take that one
{ Naomi_Board} proactive in this case just means that we are not waiting until someone sues us to start thinking about what we'll do if someone does
{ Naomi_Board} we're not going to be looking for a lawsuit
{ Paraka} Ok, but you're not about so start taking others to court over this?
{ Naomi_Board} no, no
{ Paraka} oh good
{ Naomi_Board} we are hoping for the best and preparing for the worst
{ Naomi_Board} and we want to have a lot of scary impressive names in our corner
{ Naomi_Board} like the EFF and Stanford Fair Use
{ Paraka} That's what I thought, but I know there are quite a few out there who don't.
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{ Paraka} That's basically all I wanted to ask :)
{ Naomi_Board} :D
{ Madelyn_ComRel} (Side note for everyone - if at any time you want to add something to the discussion, or get on the questions list, ping someone on ComRel and we'll get you on the list!)
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{ femme_ComRel} Okay, lottelita is up next...if you need to message us, you can type /msg and one of our names and we'll answer back. :)
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{ Lottelita} Hi! My question, shockingly, is also on the legal side of things.
{ Naomi_Board} and if you are having trouble, you can go to our Campfire web chatroom and someone will help you out
{ Naomi_Board} https://fanarchive.campfirenow.com/f39ad
{ Naomi_Board} (sorry for interrupting, go ahead)
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: -v Paraka
{ Lottelita} first, i want to applaud you guys for having a big-tent approach to fannish work. it seems like it would be easy to say, "we're here for fic because we think we can win with fic, but the vidders are on their own," etc.
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{ Lottelita} however, RPS in particular seems to have its own set of legal issues, yet i've only seen comment so far on the fanfic/fanvid side of things.
{ Lottelita} are you guys working on specific messages/defenses for RPS/RPF?
{ Naomi_Board} I will start by saying that probably we will set up a chat with Rebecca Tushnet, our head of Legal, who can give the really correct answers to all the legal questions
{ Lottelita} well, from a CommRel perspective, as well.
{ Naomi_Board} not being a lawyer, I will say that my understanding from our discussions is that RPS/RPF are on much more solid and understood ground
{ Naomi_Board} legally speaking
{ Lottelita} with respect to libel?
{ Naomi_Board} we definitely *are* concerned about them
{ Naomi_Board} in terms of caring about RPS and RPF
{ Naomi_Board} and wanting to protect them too
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{ Naomi_Board} libel/defamation/slander you are totally safe as long as it is clear the work is fiction
{ Naomi_Board} in my nonlawyer understanding!
{ Lottelita} right.
{ Naomi_Board} are there other legal aspects for RPF that you are specifically concerned about?
{ Lottelita} since RPF pushes a good number of people's squick buttons pretty hard, is OTW going to work on a "message" about why it's legit?
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{ Lottelita} and why it's included?
{ Naomi_Board} let me actually answer this more generally -- we are not looking to judge squick/squee, period. that is, we have zero desire as an org to get into the business of deciding what is "worthy" or "good" and don't think it is our place
{ Naomi_Board} we're going to include everything that our legal team tells us we can that does not risk getting us sent to jail :}
{ Lottelita} ha ha, awesome. thanks.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} (Anything else, Lottelita?)
{ Lottelita} not at the moment!
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v AnarchicQ
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v Lottelita
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Next up, AnarchicQ!
{ AnarchicQ} Ok, I was wondering about your Advocacy. Are you going to approch places like LJ and Fanlib, and are you going to advocate for policy changes or changes of TOSses to make them more Fandom friendly?
{ AnarchicQ} By them I mean LJ. sorry^^;
{ Naomi_Board} that's an interesting thought, and not something that we have discussed
{ AnarchicQ} But..you're an advocacy group, right?
{ Naomi_Board} my gut reaction is that our first and most important step is to provide a safe fandom-friendly place for fans to put their stuff, and defend that safe place
{ Naomi_Board} the idea being
{ Naomi_Board} if the Archive of our own is out there
{ AnarchicQ} But until then?
{ Naomi_Board} and you can put your stuff there, then it becomes less important what LJ's policies are towards fan works, because if LJ (or myspace or facebook, or the next hot site) abruptly change their policies as we have seen they are wont to do, then it doesn't have to mean the same kind of impact
{ Naomi_Board} we're hoping to have the archive open by this summer
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{ AnarchicQ} Ok. I warn you the more we talk the more questions I get, so please bare with me?
{ Naomi_Board} realistically, I don't think we are going to have the muscle to get LJ or another major site to change their TOS before then
{ AnarchicQ} True.
* Naomi_Board doesn't mind! :D comrel may need to give someone else a turn, but they can cut in when that is the case
{ AnarchicQ} ok
{ AnarchicQ} How are you defining Fandom?
{ AnarchicQ} The term.
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{ Naomi_Board} I'm not sure I entirely get the question, AnarchicQ -- do you mean, what do I mean by "fandom" as in "fandom-friendly" in the answer I gave up above?
{ Naomi_Board} I know it can be confusing, because in conversation we all tend to use it in a bunch of ways and rely on the context
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{ AnarchicQ} Well, For instance, you said that schollar guy who's name escapes me, is not in fandom. Even though he writes fanfiction, apparently.
{ Naomi_Board} the basic term is of course, "a collection of fans" but we aren't hoping to defend all fans of anything doing anything
{ Naomi_Board} hmm
{ Naomi_Board} okay, I am being told by little birds that it wasn't us who said that -- are you referring to Henry Jenkins?
{ AnarchicQ} Yes, That guy.
{ Naomi_Board} right -- have someone looking up the URL so we can confirm
{ Naomi_Board} but basically, to answer the question more broadly
{ Naomi_Board} we're not really looking to define fandom or to say who is in or out of it
{ Naomi_Board} we figure, that's up to each person how they define themselves
{ AnarchicQ} It might have been someone else in one of the sweeping threds of comments.
{ Naomi_Board} we're going to make a home for fan works
{ Naomi_Board} and anyone who makes fan works and wants to put them there is going to be welcome
{ Naomi_Board} and by fan works I mean fanfic, fanvids, podfic, fanart, the stuff that we all know and love
{ Naomi_Board} we're not going to be checking at the door to see if someone's got fan cred *g*
{ AnarchicQ} There, that's an answer! Right. One more question, then You can go to someone else, but I have more after this.
{ Naomi_Board} aha, and I have the url: http://community.livejournal.com/life_wo_fanlib/45514.html?thread=824010#t824010
{ Naomi_Board} is this what you were referring to, AnarchicQ?
{ AnarchicQ} Yes. Thank you.
{ Naomi_Board} AnarchicQ, comrel is telling me they have a long line, and time is short
{ Naomi_Board} so if you don't mind I'll ask you to wait for another turn, and if we don't get to you again, we'll be having more or we can get you answers in the comm :D
{ AnarchicQ} Ok. So I'm done then?
{ AnarchicQ} Ok, no worries.
{ Naomi_Board} thanks! sorry to have to cut short
{ AnarchicQ} S'cool.
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v bookjunkie
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And next up is...I think, bookjunkie!
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v AnarchicQ
{ bookjunkie} How do you plan on dealing with copyright owners who say that fanfic violates their copyright?
{ bookjunkie} Is the archive to be on or offline?
{ Naomi_Board} the archive will be online
{ Naomi_Board} as for how we deal with them, we respectfully disagree
{ bookjunkie} what will you do when they bring suit against you?
{ Naomi_Board} if someone sends us a DMCA takedown notice, then we'll deal with it on a case by case basis
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{ bookjunkie} who do I talk to about the otw news group?
{ Naomi_Board} --wait, sorry, still answering this question
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{ Naomi_Board} sorry, I tend to break up my answers -- I will type out the whole thing in this case though
{ bookjunkie} np
{ Naomi_Board} but this is important so I want to be clear
{ Naomi_Board} in an ideal universe, we would never comply with a DMCA takedown notice against a work of fanfic at all. sadly we do not live in an ideal universe, and so when and if we ever get one, a whole lot of practical issues will then arise. this will include stuff like, how much money we have on hand and how much we can raise for a defense -- which of our legal partners is willing to help us and work with us -- what our legal team thinks about the facts of the case -- what the individual fan whose work the takedown notice is being lodged against thinks.
{ Naomi_Board} and such other issues
{ Naomi_Board} what we can say is that we are not going to be saying "oh hey, DMCA takedown from some person! yank that!"
{ Naomi_Board} and leaving it all in the fan's lap to figure out what to do, what it all means, what is going on
{ Naomi_Board} and the best way to respond
{ Naomi_Board} oh, sorry
* Naomi_Board facepalms
{ Naomi_Board} I've just been told that cut off for some people
* Naomi_Board reposts it in smaller chunks
{ Naomi_Board} (this is why I tend to break up my answers *g*)
{ Naomi_Board} in an ideal universe, we would never comply with a DMCA takedown notice against a work of fanfic at all.
{ Naomi_Board} sadly we do not live in an ideal universe, and so when and if we ever get one, a whole lot of practical issues will then arise.
{ Naomi_Board} this will include stuff like:
{ Naomi_Board} -- how much money we have on hand and how much we can raise for a defense
{ Naomi_Board} -- which of our legal partners is willing to help us and work with us
{ Naomi_Board} -- what our legal team thinks about the facts of the case
{ Naomi_Board} -- what the individual fan whose work the takedown notice is being lodged against thinks
{ Naomi_Board} and others
{ Naomi_Board} we are not going to be looking for a lawsuit, as I said before
{ Naomi_Board} lawsuits really suck *g*
{ bookjunkie} I meant if a lawsuit found you.
{ Naomi_Board} and we're hoping that with education and by establishing a series of best practices to show copyright holders that they have nothing to fear from fanfiction
{ Naomi_Board} so that's the long answer to those two questions
{ bookjunkie} ok
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Bookjunkie, did you have anything else?
{ bookjunkie} yes
{ bookjunkie} technical. I'm a member of/friend of otw news and I haven't received any mail about OTW since the initial announcement by Naomi. Who do I talk to about this?
{ femme_ComRel} What sort of mail, bookjunkie?
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{ bookjunkie} umm aparently there were notices of volunteer positions and other things.
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{ Naomi_Board} if you have it friended, you should be seeing regular posts on your flist -- if you would rather be getting news by email there is also a Yahoogroup, or you can use Livejournal's thumbtack tool to get emailed every time someone posts
{ bookjunkie} what's the name of the yahoo group?
{ femme_ComRel} If you'd like to email us at comrel@transformativeworks.org, we can figure out what's going on.
{ Beth_ComRel} http://groups.yahoo.com/group/otw_news/
{ Beth_ComRel} That's the yahoo group, bookjunkie
{ bookjunkie} tyk. that is all for me tonight.
* Madelyn_ComRel sets mode: +v RDphantom
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Next up, RDphantom!
{ RDphantom} Hi everyone! I?m really interested in how far along the archive is in being built. All the various functions sound really exciting and I can?t wait to try everything out. How close are you to getting it all coded and operational?
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v bookjunkie
{ Naomi_Board} I'll take that with the ADT (Editorial Note: ADT - Accessibility, Design, & Technology) hat on *g*
{ Naomi_Board} the archive coding and testing are both going to be starting full-steam ahead starting in January
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{ Naomi_Board} as some of you may know, I've built archive software before (the AutomatedArchive software)
{ Naomi_Board} and basically, it is not that hard a software thing to build
{ Naomi_Board} but what *is* hard is building it in such a way that it is really solid and can stand up to hundreds of thousands of users and stories
{ Naomi_Board} and a thousand people posting all at once
{ Naomi_Board} which, um, anyone following Yuletide will know the existing AutomatedArchive software sadly does not
{ Naomi_Board} so what we've been working on these past few months is the foundations -- deciding what tools we are going to use, setting up a solid testing framework
{ Naomi_Board} and then we used these tools to create a prototype application
{ Naomi_Board} which we'll be opening up shortly which is actually a database for our Volunteers team
{ Naomi_Board} but which has a lot of the same code that we will ahve to write for the archive -- stuff like the basic, logging in, putting in your bio and profile, searching, sorting, etc
{ Naomi_Board} so that we have gotten a lot of the mistakes out of the way *before* we start actually creating the archive code
{ Naomi_Board} starting in January we are going to be recruiting coders and testers for the building, in all of our various channels
{ Naomi_Board} does that answer, rdphantom?
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{ RDphantom} I like that you are making it as solid as possible. So do you think you will be able to inlude all the features people want? It sounded like it could get pretty complicated.
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{ Naomi_Board} we've broken up the design into manageable chunks, we think, and narrowed down to a set of features that we think we can get up and running for version 1.0 of the archive software
{ Naomi_Board} one of our goals in taking our time like this
{ Naomi_Board} is to make sure that the software is also easy to improve and expand as time goes on
{ Naomi_Board} so probaly we *won't* have everyone's dream features right off the bat, but will have a reasonably easy time of adding new ones
{ Naomi_Board} and one of our goals in building this with a team --
{ Naomi_Board} because this is in fact feasible as a one-person job --
{ Naomi_Board} is to make sure that there are a lot of people who *can* add features
{ Naomi_Board} and who are familiar with the software from the ground up
{ RDphantom} I'm glad that you are doing this the right way, but it's hard to wait!
* Naomi_Board grins wryly and also um, has trouble being patient
{ Madelyn_ComRel} *grins* RDphantom, anything else?
{ RDphantom} good to know I'm not the only one! another question
{ RDphantom} To go back to before, How do you plan to establish a series of best practices with regards to legal trouble?
{ Naomi_Board} that I think we will have to save for our legal team to answer!
{ RDphantom} Oh, ok.
{ Naomi_Board} but hang on --
{ Naomi_Board} I can show you something we're taking as inspiration and a model
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{ RDphantom} great
{ Naomi_Board} some of you may not know about this: documentary filmmakers have been getting killed by copyright issues
{ Naomi_Board} if they were filming on the street and a truck with the Coke logo drove by
{ Naomi_Board} for five seconds
{ Naomi_Board} they were being forced to get permission from Coca Cola
{ Naomi_Board} before they were given insurance
{ Naomi_Board} without which they couldn't distribute the film
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{ Naomi_Board} http://www.centerforsocialmedia.org/resources/publications/statement_of_best_practices_in_fair_use/
{ RDphantom} the url won't link for me
{ Naomi_Board} so stanford fair use foundation helped them put together a statement of fair use practices
{ Naomi_Board} and the EFF has put together this (I'll get a tinyurl for it in a sec, RDP): http://www.eff.org/issues/ip-and-free-speech/fair-use-principles-usergen
{ Naomi_Board} http://tinyurl.com/y3zbhm
{ Naomi_Board} that is for the first one, RDphantom, if that works
{ Naomi_Board} but anyway, that is the kind of thing that we are looking to put together for us
{ RDphantom} trying to make the url work,
{ Naomi_Board} I am afraid we are past time, so maybe let us move on, and RD, if you have more questions, we will have follow-up chats
{ RDphantom} ok, cool. I'll check it out. Thanks everyone!
{ Naomi_Board} thanks! :D
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Yep, Naomi had a question from someone who had to leave the chat early. A couple of the people who asked questions had more follow-ups, but we're a bit out of time for that.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} So I think just the one from our guest who had to leave, and then we'll be wrapping this one up!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} { JaneCarnall} My question was only going to be why the OTW crew think it's advantageous to prevent communities forming on other journals besides Six Apart/SUPs.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} was the question.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} We had a couple different interpretations of that one so I think we'll answer--both.
{ femme_ComRel} I'll jump in here. :)
{ femme_ComRel} I can assure you after all I've had to go through with SixApart this year, I'm not one of their big fans. *G*
{ femme_ComRel} So we encourage off-LJ discussion and comment, definitely.
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{ femme_ComRel} However, when it comes to trying to corral the discussion so that Community Relations and other OTW members can track it and make sure concerns and questions are answered, we chose to keep the discussion on our end centralized for now.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} It's just that - there's only so many hours in the day, and we simply can't follow every conversation on multiple journals. And some of the questions would actually be asked multiple places, and we just really want to minimize confusion for *everyone*.
{ femme_ComRel} Exactly, yes.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} But we absolutely allow for anon comments that are signed and we *want* communication from everyone.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And if you feel...you know, dirty commenting on LJ? We understand that too. But we're quietly usurping in a way! Think of it like that. *coughing*
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Now, we weren't really sure if that was the actual *question*, so the other version of it
{ femme_ComRel} We also have Open ID commenting enabled on LJ so that anyone can use their IJ login, for example, to participate in discussions.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} *nods* Exactly, yes.
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{ Madelyn_ComRel} but the other version of that question that we thought she might be asking is if we don't support other efforts of people trying to put together outlets/blog systems outside of LJ
{ Naomi_Board} and I can answer that one
{ Naomi_Board} which is we totally are all for it
{ Naomi_Board} we feel that by building the open-source archive software and then putting together a central archive owned by an organization and not an individual
{ Naomi_Board} we'll be providing a piece that will be useful whether you want to stay on LJ or move to another service or start something totally new
{ Naomi_Board} we don't at all want to be the only ones working in this space, creating more fan-friendly sites and tools
{ Naomi_Board} we need more!
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And for those of us who have recs blogs, less anguish over disappearing sites if people use all this! *coughs wildly*
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v RDphantom
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Okay, wow! We're at an hour and a half already.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} And with that, I think we're going to close up shop! We'd like to thank you all *so* much for coming. We'll be posting a transcript of this chat for everyone, and we'd appreciate any feedback you have about the way this chat was run on that post. So, you know - ponder how you liked this format, how you felt in here, all that good stuff.
{ Madelyn_ComRel} Thank you especially to all those with questions - we'll be having plenty more of these, so if you didn't get a chance tonight
{ Madelyn_ComRel} we'll so be around for more.
* Beth_ComRel sets mode: -v dd--volunteers
* femme_ComRel sets mode: -v Naomi_Board
* Parts: soo
Session Close: Thu Dec 27 23:34:08 2007
Note: this transcript is exactly as it appears on the log with the following three exceptions:
1. The angled brackets around speakers' names have been changed because the html coding was making the names disappear
2. Font size for irc notifications of people joining and leaving the chat has been decreased to make the actual conversation stand out a bit more
3. One editorial note has been inserted to define "ADT"
"mode +v" followed by a nickname means that somebody's been given "voice" privileges so they can ask questions.
"mode -v" is used after the individual has asked all their questions and follow-ups.
Please let us know how the chat format worked for you in the comments below. Our next chat will take place on January 3rd, starting at 8:00 p.m. GMT (9:00 Central Europe Time).
--
femmequixotic, bethbethbeth, ciderpress, mirabile_dictu, shrift, svmadelynCommunity Relations Committee